One move...

[witesoxfan]

It would be nice, just once, to have a player to be excited about who was a position prospect we drafted and developed.

 

That's all.

 

Last year at this time, we all thought it might be Courtney Hawkins. Once upon a time, it was Beckham.

 

If they're already starting to losing fans who used to live and die with the White Sox, it's going to take even longer to get back the casual fans.

 

While I agree it would be nice to have one drafted/signed and developed, it's not necessary. I'm sure plenty of people will inevitably buy Avisail Garcia jerseys.

 

This isn't necessarily a process that can be done overnight.

[southsider2k5]

Keppinger has a career OPS of over .700. He just barely got to a .600 OPS by the end of the year. It was a colossally disappointing season. Blaming Hahn for that is like blaming Williams for Dunn - at some point, it's just bad luck, because on the surface the move is decent.

 

And the last part...why are you so obsessed with jersey sales? Who cares. Can't you just say "it was a good move" and be done?

 

Speaking of irrelevant Conor stories... I won an autographed Conor pic at the ball game on the last day of the season, along with two free non-Conor T-shirts.

[southsider2k5]

While I agree it would be nice to have one drafted/signed and developed, it's not necessary. I'm sure plenty of people will inevitably buy Avisail Garcia jerseys.

 

This isn't necessarily a process that can be done overnight.

 

Agreed. We have brought guys into the organization in many ways. Draft and development has worked for pitching, and it hasn't for offense. We have brought them in other ways.

[oldsox]

What do you think of Arenado from the Rockies? That team annually needs pitching.

Rockettes don't figure to part with Arenado. The two guys there who are available for pitching are Rutledge and Fowler. Prob Pacheco, also. None would lead the Sox to the playoffs, but they would all play and make the team better.

[caulfield12]

While I agree it would be nice to have one drafted/signed and developed, it's not necessary. I'm sure plenty of people will inevitably buy Avisail Garcia jerseys.

 

This isn't necessarily a process that can be done overnight.

 

 

Sure, in the same way you would have been excited to buy a Quentin jersey, for example....although it's a pipe dream right now that Garcia is also going to lead the MVP voting for 5/6th's of a season in 2014.

 

My comment is more aimed at wanting to have SOME reason (I'll take one) to believe in this organization turning things around.

 

If we can never develop a single position player, all the pitching in the world won't make up for it.

 

(And we couldn't even manage to get anything productive out of Francisco Liriano last year....therefore, starting to come over to the Dick Allen side on this one).

 

And if we can't adopt modern baseball strategies/methods, like the Pirates or Rays with their defensive alignments/shifts/quantitative analysis, it's even bleaker.

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

Agreed. We have brought guys into the organization in many ways. Draft and development has worked for pitching, and it hasn't for offense. We have brought them in other ways.

 

Sure, but doing that has also caused questionable chemistry and resulted in a lack of cohesiveness on the field.

 

None of these Sox players came up through the system and learned how to win and play the game the right way fundamentally...as a group.

 

Now all the fundamentals in the world won't make average or below average Twins' players great.....because they just don't have the pitching to cover up for it, but when the differences are more negligible, it makes all the difference in the world between 88 and 92 wins, for example.

Playoffs or "wait 'til next year."

 

 

Let's look at our starting line-up (for the moment) going into 2014

 

RF Garcia (Tigers/Venezuela)

CF DeAza (Marlins/DR)

LF Viciedo (Cuban system)

3B Gillaspie (Giants) / Keppinger (Rays, but Ventura is no Maddon in maximizing the results of his "spare parts")

SS Ramirez (Cuban system)

2B Beckham (UGA/Team USA/NCAA) or Semien (only Sox prospect)

1B ???

DH Dunn (never on a playoff team)

C ???

 

It worked once....by some miracle, in 2005, and to a lesser extent in 2008 because of great starting pitching and relief pitching for one half of that season while Linebrink was 100% healthy.

Edited October 3, 2013 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Sure, but doing that has also caused questionable chemistry and resulted in a lack of cohesiveness on the field.

 

None of these Sox players came up through the system and learned how to win and play the game the right way fundamentally...as a group.

 

Now all the fundamentals in the world won't make average or below average Twins' players great.....because they just don't have the pitching to cover up for it, but when the differences are more negligible, it makes all the difference in the world between 88 and 92 wins, for example.

Playoffs or "wait 'til next year."

 

 

Let's look at our starting line-up (for the moment) going into 2014

 

RF Garcia (Tigers/Venezuela)

CF DeAza (Marlins/DR)

LF Viciedo (Cuban system)

3B Gillaspie (Giants) / Keppinger (Rays, but Ventura is no Maddon in maximizing the results of his "spare parts")

SS Ramirez (Cuban system)

2B Beckham (UGA/Team USA/NCAA) or Semien (only Sox prospect)

1B ???

DH Dunn (never on a playoff team)

C ???

 

It worked once....by some miracle, in 2005, and to a lesser extent in 2008 because of great starting pitching and relief pitching for one half of that season while Linebrink was 100% healthy.

 

Your personality doesn't change once you get traded or signed as a free agent. If you are a disruption, you are that way whether you were drafted for signed by the team you are with. Hell if anything we have seen that the Sox teach the positional fundamentals worse than most teams. Getting guys from outside might not be a bad thing honestly.

[Eminor3rd]

None of these Sox players came up through the system and learned how to win and play the game the right way fundamentally...as a group.

 

No offense intended, caulfield, but this "knowing how to win" thing is such garbage, IMO. Guys that don't have the balls to perform under pressure and/or don't do what their coaches ask them don't stick in the Majors. The fact is that event sequencing is impossible for individual players to control in baseball, so everyone has to just do their part and hope that the team performs the rest. It makes causality hard to determine, but "good guys" don't will wins into existence with their attitudes. team chemistry is something, but I don't think you can pick guys that haven't wound up winning teams and conclude that they are bad for chemistry.

[witesoxfan]

Sure, in the same way you would have been excited to buy a Quentin jersey, for example....although it's a pipe dream right now that Garcia is also going to lead the MVP voting for 5/6th's of a season in 2014.

 

My comment is more aimed at wanting to have SOME reason (I'll take one) to believe in this organization turning things around.

 

If we can never develop a single position player, all the pitching in the world won't make up for it.

 

(And we couldn't even manage to get anything productive out of Francisco Liriano last year....therefore, starting to come over to the Dick Allen side on this one).

 

And if we can't adopt modern baseball strategies/methods, like the Pirates or Rays with their defensive alignments/shifts/quantitative analysis, it's even bleaker.

 

The fact that the Sox spent more than $1 million on an amateur international signing is all the more you need to know that things are changing. I think their farm system is going to be top 10-15 in the next 3 years or so.

[oldsox]

The fact that the Sox spent more than $1 million on an amateur international signing is all the more you need to know that things are changing. I think their farm system is going to be top 10-15 in the next 3 years or so.

I hope you're right, but we have no idea if that million ++ bucks was spent wisely. I believe only one of those 16 year old Dominican signings in 2012 actually played this year, and he hit way below .200. I never saw anything on the other two. Correct me if I am wrong. The other signing, Mick Zapata, at least offers a bit of hope, because there are plans for him play somewhere in the US in 2014. I just don't see what you see in the int'l signings that makes you think Sox will have a top 10-15 farm system.

[caulfield12]

I hope you're right, but we have no idea if that million ++ bucks was spent wisely. I believe only one of those 16 year old Dominican signings in 2012 actually played this year, and he hit way below .200. I never saw anything on the other two. Correct me if I am wrong. The other signing, Mick Zapata, at least offers a bit of hope, because there are plans for him play somewhere in the US in 2014. I just don't see what you see in the int'l signings that makes you think Sox will have a top 10-15 farm system.

 

 

If we get top three draft picks the next two or three seasons in a row, that will definitely do it.

 

In all seriousness, though...doing what the majority of MLB has been doing for the last couple of decades is NICE, it's a step in the right direction...but there's still no guarantee we are (or will be) selecting the right players.

 

We have the examples of Ramirez/Viciedo and Rienzo to a lesser extent (in terms of Latin America), but we started practically from scratch in the Dominican. (I'm pretty sure Jesus Pena was our last homegrown contributor from the DR).

 

Sure, there's Paddy, but with any of the successes or feathers in his cap...there's also Molina and the bizarre lack on knowledge on the part of KW about his background.

 

We also have had very little to no presence in Venezuela, despite our former nearly decade-tenured manager being from there (pretty much a national hero) and our initial success back in the day finding Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Lee in Central/South America. The best thing you can say about Ozzie and Omar Vizquel being on the Sox is that Ozzie helped get Freddie Garcia and Omar mentored Alexei Ramirez and kept Mark Teahen from driving him insane with his statue-like defense.

 

Other than Takatsu and Iguchi, who KW scouted from afar via video, we haven't done much of anything either in the entire Asian market.

Edited October 4, 2013 by caulfield12

[NorthSideSox72]

I hope you're right, but we have no idea if that million ++ bucks was spent wisely. I believe only one of those 16 year old Dominican signings in 2012 actually played this year, and he hit way below .200. I never saw anything on the other two. Correct me if I am wrong. The other signing, Mick Zapata, at least offers a bit of hope, because there are plans for him play somewhere in the US in 2014. I just don't see what you see in the int'l signings that makes you think Sox will have a top 10-15 farm system.

First, when you sign 16 year olds, they often aren't playing in the US for a couple years. And they sometimes don't even play DSL ball for a year or two. IT takes patience.

 

Second, you have to take DSL performance numbers with a HUGE PILE of salt. They mean almost nothing.

 

Third, spending money does not magically make the system better by itself... but spending many times over as much money, re-vamping your LatAm operations entirely, bringing in experienced guys like Paddy... those things will tend to pay off, and they are indicative of other, smaller changes we don't even see. It will, however, take a couple more years before you really see noticeable and major improvement. It takes time. Wilder did a lot of damage, and frankly, so did KW (whether or not you agree with his overall methods - focusing on LatAm talent in this case).

 

[caulfield12]

First, when you sign 16 year olds, they often aren't playing in the US for a couple years. And they sometimes don't even play DSL ball for a year or two. IT takes patience.

 

Second, you have to take DSL performance numbers with a HUGE PILE of salt. They mean almost nothing.

 

Third, spending money does not magically make the system better by itself... but spending many times over as much money, re-vamping your LatAm operations entirely, bringing in experienced guys like Paddy... those things will tend to pay off, and they are indicative of other, smaller changes we don't even see. It will, however, take a couple more years before you really see noticeable and major improvement. It takes time. Wilder did a lot of damage, and frankly, so did KW (whether or not you agree with his overall methods - focusing on LatAm talent in this case).

 

Still better off, arguably, targeting the Puigs, Solers, Cespedeses and Abreus....although the price has gotten a LOT higher since the original Alexei Ramirez contract and even Dayan Viciedo's contract seems like, if not a bargain, a lot cheaper than what the Cubs paid for all of their Latin American talent.

Edited October 4, 2013 by caulfield12

[oldsox]

First, when you sign 16 year olds, they often aren't playing in the US for a couple years. And they sometimes don't even play DSL ball for a year or two. IT takes patience.

 

Second, you have to take DSL performance numbers with a HUGE PILE of salt. They mean almost nothing.

 

Third, spending money does not magically make the system better by itself... but spending many times over as much money, re-vamping your LatAm operations entirely, bringing in experienced guys like Paddy... those things will tend to pay off, and they are indicative of other, smaller changes we don't even see. It will, however, take a couple more years before you really see noticeable and major improvement. It takes time. Wilder did a lot of damage, and frankly, so did KW (whether or not you agree with his overall methods - focusing on LatAm talent in this case).

para 1. Then why sign a 16 year old if he can't play for 2 years? Baseball players should play baseball.

para 2. Why are DSL stats meaningless? When our 17 yr old DSL shortstop who got a ton of money a year earlier hits .130 in 2013, should I not be skeptical?

para 3. Makes a lot of sense.

[southsider2k5]

para 1. Then why sign a 16 year old if he can't play for 2 years? Baseball players should play baseball.

para 2. Why are DSL stats meaningless? When our 17 yr old DSL shortstop who got a ton of money a year earlier hits .130 in 2013, should I not be skeptical?

para 3. Makes a lot of sense.

 

Prospects are still prospects. For the top level guys, you can recognize that a guy has elite potential.

[NorthSideSox72]

para 1. Then why sign a 16 year old if he can't play for 2 years? Baseball players should play baseball.

para 2. Why are DSL stats meaningless? When our 17 yr old DSL shortstop who got a ton of money a year earlier hits .130 in 2013, should I not be skeptical?

para 3. Makes a lot of sense.

1. That 16 year old does indeed play baseball - but is far too raw to be on a US team (how many 16 year olds have you seen, ever, in any org, at a US affiliate?), and in some cases are even too raw for the DSL. They generally start DSL 17-18, then move up (though there are exceptions). They play back field games, get instructional work, etc.

 

2. Not ENTIRELY meaningless, just ALMOST meaningless. There is a difference. The talent level on those teams is all over the place, the players are incredibly raw, the fields are often in poor shape, the players are very young and adjusting to baseball life... there is just a ton of noise in those numbers.

 

[southsider2k5]

1. That 16 year old does indeed play baseball - but is far too raw to be on a US team (how many 16 year olds have you seen, ever, in any org, at a US affiliate?), and in some cases are even too raw for the DSL. They generally start DSL 17-18, then move up (though there are exceptions). They play back field games, get instructional work, etc.

 

2. Not ENTIRELY meaningless, just ALMOST meaningless. There is a difference. The talent level on those teams is all over the place, the players are incredibly raw, the fields are often in poor shape, the players are very young and adjusting to baseball life... there is just a ton of noise in those numbers.

 

they also could be working on things like rebuilding a swing, changing a swingplane, pitch recognition, going to the opposite field, etc., which wouldn't be kind to their numbers.

[Vance Law]

I'm very interested to see what Hahn does because there are a lot of positions that can be upgraded but not a lot of obvious ways to do it. Free agent market stinks.

 

McCann makes a good amount of sense. To me the drawbacks are 1) that you're going to have to way overpay, and 2) if you're someone who thinks the Sox potential for legitimately competing is probably 2 or 3 years away rather than next year, you're paying a lot for age the 31 and 32 seasons of a catcher has clearly been downhill with the bat and healthwise since he was 24. Even still it's such a clear upgrade that it makes some sense.

 

To me the most obvious move is to trade Alexei. Get something for him rather than letting him walk as a free agent. Take some more $$ off the books. Give Semien an everyday job at SS or 2B.

[Vance Law]

I think the Sox plans for 3B in 2014 is a platoon of Gillaspie and Semien.

 

They are not going to platoon Semien. No chance.

[2nd_city_saint787]

I'm very interested to see what Hahn does because there are a lot of positions that can be upgraded but not a lot of obvious ways to do it. Free agent market stinks.

 

McCann makes a good amount of sense. To me the drawbacks are 1) that you're going to have to way overpay, and 2) if you're someone who thinks the Sox potential for legitimately competing is probably 2 or 3 years away rather than next year, you're paying a lot for age the 31 and 32 seasons of a catcher has clearly been downhill with the bat and healthwise since he was 24. Even still it's such a clear upgrade that it makes some sense.

 

To me the most obvious move is to trade Alexei. Get something for him rather than letting him walk as a free agent. Take some more $$ off the books. Give Semien an everyday job at SS or 2B.

 

The only "someones" that matter are those in the front office.

 

As far as Lexi goes, I really hope he stays and Semien takes over for Beckham. The team needs offense so it makes little sense to get rid of a guy who was in the top 15 in hits.

 

I also wanna see him bat 2nd, hopefully behind someone who gets on base at a good clip. As I've said a few times recently Lexi is a much better hitter with runners on vs bases empty (.263/.300/.375 vs .297/.335/.443 for his career)....Call me crazy but I really wouldn't mind seeing him in the 3 hole again either.

Edited October 5, 2013 by scs787

[Vance Law]

Except a trained chimp could have done a better job coming up with a Sox offseason than Jeff Keppinger.

 

Keppinger was the best 3B on the market and a solid bet to be adequate for cheap. The only other person in the conversation was Youkilis. He made $12 million to put up a .648 OPS in 28 games played. 28 games played.

 

 

Keppinger was obviously very bad this season. He was also very unlucky. By this measure the unluckiest hitter in baseball.

http://www.bsports.com/statsinsights/mlb/l...-on-line-drives

[Vance Law]

The team needs offense so it makes little sense to get rid of a guy who was in the top 15 in hits.

 

Total number of hits, alone, I do not believe is a very meaningful stat.

He was #11 in the AL in hits. He was also #5 in outs made.

 

[2nd_city_saint787]

Total number of hits, alone, I do not believe is a very meaningful stat.

He was #11 in the AL in hits. He was also #5 in outs made.

 

Interesting, still though what it really boils down to is who's better Beckham vs Ramirez and to me that answer is clearly Lexi. Then again that also means he has more trade value so I'm not against him being traded for the right package.

 

Looked up that outs made stat and there are a ton of good players on that list...Top 10 alone features Machado, Andrus, Adam Jones, and Pedoria.

[Vance Law]

Interesting, still though what it really boils down to is who's better Beckham vs Ramirez and to me that answer is clearly Lexi. Then again that also means he has more trade value so I'm not against him being traded for the right package.

 

The other thing to consider though is that Ramirez will be making $9.5 million compared $3 million and change for Beckham. You're probably right in that Alexei has been the better player the last couple years on the merits of his defense (though he did lead the league in errors this year) and it remains to be seen what Beckham could do at SS. Both are very good defensively and together the best double play combo in baseball. As a hitter, Beckham has been better than Ramirez in each of the last 2 seasons (even while having wrist surgery during that time) and he's going in the right direction. To me it's something of a tossup as to who's the better player going forward. Ramirez has the edge defensively and Beckham offensively in my opinion.

 

Looked up that outs made stat and there are a ton of good players on that list...Top 10 alone features Machado, Andrus, Adam Jones, and Pedoria.

It does. Which is why I'd say both of those stats # of hits and # of outs are not extremely useful in isolation. They really are largely a function of who gets the most plate appearances. Pedroia puts up a great OBP which is what's important. The fact that he plays every game, hits at the top of the order, and plays for a team with a great offense and therefore gets more at bats per game are what puts him on that outs list.

 

Edit: I didn't realize Ramirez is under contract for 2015 as well. Maybe that means start Semien in AAA, see if he can dominate there.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Vance Law

[caulfield12]

The other thing to consider though is that Ramirez will be making $9.5 million compared $3 million and change for Beckham. You're probably right in that Alexei has been the better player the last couple years on the merits of his defense (though he did lead the league in errors this year) and it remains to be seen what Beckham could do at SS. Both are very good defensively and together the best double play combo in baseball. As a hitter, Beckham has been better than Ramirez in each of the last 2 seasons (even while having wrist surgery during that time) and he's going in the right direction. To me it's something of a tossup as to who's the better player going forward. Ramirez has the edge defensively and Beckham offensively in my opinion.

 

 

It does. Which is why I'd say both of those stats # of hits and # of outs are not extremely useful in isolation. They really are largely a function of who gets the most plate appearances. Pedroia puts up a great OBP which is what's important. The fact that he plays every game, hits at the top of the order, and plays for a team with a great offense and therefore gets more at bats per game are what puts him on that outs list.

 

Edit: I didn't realize Ramirez is under contract for 2015 as well. Maybe that means start Semien in AAA, see if he can dominate there.

 

Beckham was going in the right direction? Are you sure you didn't skip the second half of the season?

 

Ramirez was a much more consistent offensive contributor this season than Ramirez.

 

I'm sure 1/3rd of the fanbase is ready to non-tender Beckham, if not more.

 

If Carlos Sanchez didn't fall back this past season, then Sanchez and/or Semien would be your starters in 2014 (were they to deal Ramirez).

Edited October 6, 2013 by caulfield12