How Should Rick Hahn Fix The White Sox

[southsider2k5]

And guess which one has demonstrated he has a clue at the plate. And can make contact regularly. Oh, wait, that's definitely NOT Viciedo.

 

MLB Averages: O-Swing = 31.0%, Z-Swing = 65.5%, Z-Contact = 87.0%

Anthony Rizzo: O-Swing = 30.0%, Z-Swing = 66.5%, Z-Contact = 89.1% (102 wRC+)

Dayan Viciedo: O-Swing = 42.5%, Z-Swing = 73.5%, Z-Contact = 82.9% (96 wRC+)

 

One of those lines looks like a Major League hitter, the other looks like a minor leaguer being challenged by stuff way above his skill level.

 

Yet Viciedo is still out producing the golden boy.

[Marty34]

By my quick and dirty math, the Sox can add nearly $70M to payroll from where it stands now meaning the options they have at their disposal are too numerous to mention. Should be a fun offseason.

[Chicago White Sox]

And guess which one has demonstrated he has a clue at the plate. And can make contact regularly. Oh, wait, that's definitely NOT Viciedo.

 

MLB Averages: O-Swing = 31.0%, Z-Swing = 65.5%, Z-Contact = 87.0%

Anthony Rizzo: O-Swing = 30.0%, Z-Swing = 66.5%, Z-Contact = 89.1% (102 wRC+)

Dayan Viciedo: O-Swing = 42.5%, Z-Swing = 73.5%, Z-Contact = 82.9% (96 wRC+)

 

One of those lines looks like a Major League hitter, the other looks like a minor leaguer being challenged by stuff way above his skill level.

Who is arguing that Viciedo has demonstrated better plate discipline than Rizzo? I know Rizzo easily wins in that department and always will. Doesn't change the fact that their offensive production hasn't been much different over the course of their young careers.

[caulfield12]

And guess which one has demonstrated he has a clue at the plate. And can make contact regularly. Oh, wait, that's definitely NOT Viciedo.

 

MLB Averages: O-Swing = 31.0%, Z-Swing = 65.5%, Z-Contact = 87.0%

Anthony Rizzo: O-Swing = 30.0%, Z-Swing = 66.5%, Z-Contact = 89.1% (102 wRC+)

Dayan Viciedo: O-Swing = 42.5%, Z-Swing = 73.5%, Z-Contact = 82.9% (96 wRC+)

 

One of those lines looks like a Major League hitter, the other looks like a minor leaguer being challenged by stuff way above his skill level.

 

And Puig has one of the three worst swing and miss percentages in the majors...he's doomed, too?

[joeynach]

By my quick and dirty math, the Sox can add nearly $70M to payroll from where it stands now meaning the options they have at their disposal are too numerous to mention. Should be a fun offseason.

 

The White Sox will not be fixed with a spending spree on FA's without a young talented core in place first, similar to how the current Nationals have been constructed. I think most Sox fans think like the Sox front office, most larger scale FA contracts, especially for players over the age of 30, are viewed as mistakes in hindsight.

[caulfield12]

The White Sox will not be fixed with a spending spree on FA's without a young talented core in place first, similar to how the current Nationals have been constructed. I think most Sox fans think like the Sox front office, most larger scale FA contracts, especially for players over the age of 30, are viewed as mistakes in hindsight.

 

Certainly they have to be in the post-PED's environment.

 

Paul Konerko's regression at age 36/37 should serve as yet another warning, along with Adam Dunn. Alexei Ramirez. Jose Contreras. Scott Linebrink. Alex Rios.

 

We got away with it on the Thome deal, which was also subsidized, but generally not a wise move. AJ and Dye performed well, too.

 

It's another reason to be careful with DeAza going forward.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I don't think any team should ever rebuild unless the entire roster is talentless. I'm surprised how many people voted for it. I'd venture there are a lot more examples of last to 1st then there are rebuilds that pay off in a short period of time. And sustained sucess is nothing but a mirage. Large payroll teams can do it and those lucky enough to have stumbled across great draft classes and luck with injuries.

[Jerksticks]

I don't think any team should ever rebuild unless the entire roster is talentless. I'm surprised how many people voted for it. I'd venture there are a lot more examples of last to 1st then there are rebuilds that pay off in a short period of time. And sustained sucess is nothing but a mirage. Large payroll teams can do it and those lucky enough to have stumbled across great draft classes and luck with injuries.

Amen brotha.

[greg775]

My impression of the Sox fanbase on this board (not everybody, but general consensus) is people on here don't want Jerry to spend big bucks to get the payroll up where it should be for a city the size of Chicago.

I get the feeling the consensus is save the money and spend it all on international scouting and the draft and all this sort of stuff.

 

Really, people ... I hate bad contracts as much as anybody (Rios, Dunn, Peavy) but cmon, the Sox have to improve the product. Let's believe for a moment we have a much better GM than Kenny and Mr. Hahn knows WHO to spend it on. In that case, spend, spend, spend. The Sox have to replace a TON of players in the lineup (pitching is fine) and one way to do that is to SPEND.

 

Do you all agree with me there's a reluctance to spend money on here, as if we should give a flip about Jerry and his money??? I say SPEND IT.

 

As far as a trade, package Beckham, DeAza and either Q or Santiago and we should be able to get something of interest.

Edited October 7, 2013 by greg775

[caulfield12]

My impression of the Sox fanbase on this board (not everybody, but general consensus) is people on here don't want Jerry to spend big bucks to get the payroll up where it should be for a city the size of Chicago.

I get the feeling the consensus is save the money and spend it all on international scouting and the draft and all this sort of stuff.

 

Really, people ... I hate bad contracts as much as anybody (Rios, Dunn, Peavy) but cmon, the Sox have to improve the product. Let's believe for a moment we have a much better GM than Kenny and Mr. Hahn knows WHO to spend it on. In that case, spend, spend, spend. The Sox have to replace a TON of players in the lineup (pitching is fine) and one way to do that is to SPEND.

 

Do you all agree with me there's a reluctance to spend money on here, as if we should give a flip about Jerry and his money??? I say SPEND IT.

 

As far as a trade, package Beckham, DeAza and either Q or Santiago and we should be able to get something of interest.

 

Ask how that philosophy is going for the Mets and Angels, for example.

 

It has worked, to an extent, for the Dodgers, Rangers, Giants, Yankees, Phillies and Red Sox (spending intelligently, they recovered from a terrible season).

 

But look at the Cardinals (best organization in baseball), Braves, Reds, Rays, Pirates, Indians, A's.....they've spent on one or two free agents, but they're not overspending. 80-85% of their players are being developed internally, by their farm systems.

 

The thought is sure...spend on one or two players, but don't give out those huge contracts to guys like Choo, Ellsbury, Greinke, Josh Hamilton, Pujols, Cano, etc.

 

That's it. Spend, but spend wisely and intelligently...and don't put yourself behind the 8 ball because of stupid/crazy spending.

 

Spend, but also realize you have to trade Santiago/Quintana and maybe Reed to get some other parts for your offense that make sense.

Edited October 7, 2013 by caulfield12

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I voted for REBUILD, but that's almost entirely on the offensive side of things. I think our pitching is set up very nicely for the future, rotation wise, and I am completely content with our bullpen going forward if it means we can add a veteran piece when this team is ready to compete.

 

What needs a giant overhaul is the offense. De Aza, Beckham, Dunn, Konerko, Phegley, and Alexei are all replaceable. That's 6 of our 9 hitters. That's substantial.

[GreenSox]

I vote for a strong retool. Basically every starter except for A Garcia should be replaced. they absolutely should deal De Aza, who as a decent hitter, might bring something in return, but whose brain dead play needs to be off this team. Ramirez too. They need a complete culture change, but obviously that wont' happen because of the retention of Ventura.

[greg775]

I vote for a strong retool. Basically every starter except for A Garcia should be replaced. they absolutely should deal De Aza, who as a decent hitter, might bring something in return, but whose brain dead play needs to be off this team. Ramirez too. They need a complete culture change, but obviously that wont' happen because of the retention of Ventura.

 

I thought we could keep A. Garcia, Viciedo (pray he can become a hitter) and Dunn (where's he gonna go) and get rid of basically everybody else.

[Jerksticks]

I thought we could keep A. Garcia, Viciedo (pray he can become a hitter) and Dunn (where's he gonna go) and get rid of basically everybody else.

I don't think this will happen but I wouldn't be pissed if it did.

[hogan873]

My impression of the Sox fanbase on this board (not everybody, but general consensus) is people on here don't want Jerry to spend big bucks to get the payroll up where it should be for a city the size of Chicago.

I get the feeling the consensus is save the money and spend it all on international scouting and the draft and all this sort of stuff.

 

Really, people ... I hate bad contracts as much as anybody (Rios, Dunn, Peavy) but cmon, the Sox have to improve the product. Let's believe for a moment we have a much better GM than Kenny and Mr. Hahn knows WHO to spend it on. In that case, spend, spend, spend. The Sox have to replace a TON of players in the lineup (pitching is fine) and one way to do that is to SPEND.

 

Do you all agree with me there's a reluctance to spend money on here, as if we should give a flip about Jerry and his money??? I say SPEND IT.

 

As far as a trade, package Beckham, DeAza and either Q or Santiago and we should be able to get something of interest.

I agree that some money needs to be spent, but to just go out and sign a bunch of free agents just to do it isn't going to get the job done. They need to focus on catcher and third base first, and then look at what else is out there. If they're going to spend, it needs to happen at those two positions first. I'd like to see a few other guys dealt for some more help in the lineup, and that may happen. Realistically, though, I don't see it all happening this offseason. I think we'll see a couple signings and a trade or two, but this team will still be a year or so away from seriously contending.

[oldsox]

Hahn needs to establish what kind of trade value his pitchers have, and then pull the plug and trade one of them. Probably it's between Q and Code Red. We should be able to improve both third and catcher big time, let Phegley develop as # 2. I think Abreu and McCann are pipe dreams.

[lasttriptotulsa]

I vote for a strong retool. Basically every starter except for A Garcia should be replaced. they absolutely should deal De Aza, who as a decent hitter, might bring something in return, but whose brain dead play needs to be off this team. Ramirez too. They need a complete culture change, but obviously that wont' happen because of the retention of Ventura.

 

 

I thought we could keep A. Garcia, Viciedo (pray he can become a hitter) and Dunn (where's he gonna go) and get rid of basically everybody else.

 

I really don't get everyone's hatred of Ramirez. He had a fWAR of 3.1 this year and using a value of $5 million per WAR, he is actually underpaid. Sure his homers were down again this year, but he hit 39 doubles giving him 47 extra base hits which is well above his career average.

[Eminor3rd]

Yet Viciedo is still out producing the golden boy.

 

No he's not, lol. How is he outproducing him?

[Eminor3rd]

And Puig has one of the three worst swing and miss percentages in the majors...he's doomed, too?

 

No, Puig is hitting. Viciedo is not and never really has. There is always an exceptional guy or two here or there that can hit everything, but Viciedo clearly isn't one of them.

[TaylorStSox]

No he's not, lol. How is he outproducing him?

265/14/56/731 in an injury plagued year

267/5/24/698 in an injury plagued year

 

Beckham's defense is obviously better, but easily replaceable. Viciedo has a higher upside, better bat speed, a more fluid swing, stronger hands and consistently hits the ball harder. Advanced stats probably won't tell you any of that, but your eyes and ears will.

 

Viciedo also doesn't have anyone in the organization pushing him. Beckham has Semien and Garcia. Even if Garcia hits 220, he appears to be a better fielder and has more tools.

[witesoxfan]

265/14/56/731 in an injury plagued year

267/5/24/698 in an injury plagued year

 

Beckham's defense is obviously better, but easily replaceable. Viciedo has a higher upside, better bat speed, a more fluid swing, stronger hands and consistently hits the ball harder. Advanced stats probably won't tell you any of that, but your eyes and ears will.

 

Viciedo also doesn't have anyone in the organization pushing him. Beckham has Semien and Garcia. Even if Garcia hits 220, he appears to be a better fielder and has more tools.

 

This was Viciedo and Rizzo.

 

Just looking at splits, here's Rizzo over his last 1058 - .251/.330/.435/.765

And here's Viciedo over his alst 1016 - .260/.302/.436/.738

[TaylorStSox]

This was Viciedo and Rizzo.

 

Just looking at splits, here's Rizzo over his last 1058 - .251/.330/.435/.765

And here's Viciedo over his alst 1016 - .260/.302/.436/.738

I thought there was on,y one golden boy.

 

I should probably read the whole thread.

Edited October 7, 2013 by TaylorStSox

[witesoxfan]

I thought there was on,y one golden boy.

 

I should probably read the whole thread.

 

Ha, I still agree that the Sox should move on from Beckham. I've personally seen enough of him. Maybe he figures it out elsewhere, but he certainly wouldn't be the first guy to come up and look good for 200 PAs to turn into and remain a mediocre to poor player for the remainder of his career.

[Eminor3rd]

This was Viciedo and Rizzo.

 

Just looking at splits, here's Rizzo over his last 1058 - .251/.330/.435/.765

And here's Viciedo over his alst 1016 - .260/.302/.436/.738

 

Yeah, I'm not saying Rizzo is lighting the world up, but there is absolutely no argument that he hasn't outperformed Viciedo. Not by a landslide, but by enough that there's a significant difference.

[Lillian]

After reading all of your comments, and thinking more about what Hahn should do, I think this "retool" should be a two year project.

I would trade Alexei and de Aza, for prospects, if there is any market for them.

I would retain all of the young pitching, including Santiago.

Abreu is still my unquestionable #1 target.

Gamble on a cheap, one year deal for Sizemore, who will be looking to re-establish his value:

 

Here is my lineup:

 

SS Semien

2B Beckham

RF Garcia

CF Sizemore

1B Abreu

DH Dunn

LF Viciedo

3B Gillaspie/platooned with a rh hitter

C Phegley/Flowers competition

 

That gets them to 2015, when they can evaluate the development of the young core of Semien, Garcia, Abreu, Viciedo, Gillaspie and whoever catches. Then, with plenty of payroll flexibility still left, they can decide if they have any other holes to fill besides Sizemore and Dunn, whose contracts would be finished.

 

They would have a better idea of how to evaluate the pitching staff, after a year of the young starters, Santiago, Johnson, as well as a better idea of well Danks has recovered.

 

It also gives them one more year to gauge the potential of some of the very young talent like Hawkins, T. Anderson, Micah Johnson and whoever is selected #3 in this years draft.

 

With continued payroll flexibility, and a few youngsters emerging as solid players, the Sox should be able to fill the remaining holes and put a very competitive team on the field in 2015.