Make your arguments why Ventura isn't like Baker?

[caulfield12]

 

 

When I was reading this article, I thought about Jerry Manuel right away, and how we needed the opposite of Manuel at that time...and picked Ozzie. But it also reminded me of a lot of the same things that have been said about Ventura as well.

 

Keep in mind, the Reds made the playoffs 3 of the past 4 years. The White Sox have only made the playoffs 4 times in the past 20 years.

 

Besides the fact that this year's team SEEMED to be lacking in talent, competitiveness/comeback-ability and cohesiveness (well, you can say that about any team that loses nearly 100 games), what are the arguments for retaining Ventura, and by that, I mean "longer term," for at least the next 2-3 seasons? Do you worry that he's too passive? All those accusations about being not committed enough/uncertain...do you still feel 100% confident he's the right man for the rebuilding/retooling job ahead?

 

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2013100...040071?gcheck=1

 

The next man the Reds hire won’t be much like Dusty. He won’t list Jimi Hendrix’ All Along The Watchtower as his favorite song. And he will come with an edge that Baker never had, nor wanted to have. Of all the managers and coaches I’ve covered here since 1988, none wanted to avoid conflict as much as Baker. It’s too bad that conflict comes with the job.

 

Baker’s inability to motivate his players down the stretch partly owed to that trait. He wanted to be a friend and mentor, not a leader. That played well when Scott Rolen was here. It failed this year. Somebody needed to kick some aspirations in the home clubhouse. It never happened.

 

Ballplayers want to be led. Most of us do. We want to be inspired, pushed, challenged, driven. Choose your descriptive. Dusty’s style might have allowed his players to play free and easy. It also encouraged a certain complacency. No one who witnessed this team’s last week of games could come away thinking it needed to win. Wanted to win? Of course. Needed it? Not really.

 

Baker lost points with ownership when he allowed Brandon Phillips to interrupt his daily pre-game media briefing, to berate an Enquirer reporter. He lost points by not saying to Joey Votto, “Hey, man, this is a team game. Runs help us win, not getting on base.’’

 

He lost points by not always being a team player himself. Baker is nothing if not stubborn. Suggestions made by those in charge were rarely heeded, be it lineup issues or the role of Aroldis Chapman.

 

Mostly, Baker is out because his personality stopped working with the players he managed. That happens a lot in baseball. It’s a reason even good managers get fired, usually more than once. Baker is a good manager.

[Dick Allen]

When I was reading this article, I thought about Jerry Manuel right away, and how we needed the opposite of Manuel at that time...and picked Ozzie. But it also reminded me of a lot of the same things that have been said about Ventura as well.

 

Keep in mind, the Reds made the playoffs 3 of the past 4 years. The White Sox have only made the playoffs 4 times in the past 20 years.

 

Besides the fact that this year's team SEEMED to be lacking in talent, competitiveness/comeback-ability and cohesiveness (well, you can say that about any team that loses nearly 100 games), what are the arguments for retaining Ventura, and by that, I mean "longer term," for at least the next 2-3 seasons? Do you worry that he's too passive? All those accusations about being not committed enough/uncertain...do you still feel 100% confident he's the right man for the rebuilding/retooling job ahead?

 

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2013100...040071?gcheck=1

 

The next man the Reds hire won’t be much like Dusty. He won’t list Jimi Hendrix’ All Along The Watchtower as his favorite song. And he will come with an edge that Baker never had, nor wanted to have. Of all the managers and coaches I’ve covered here since 1988, none wanted to avoid conflict as much as Baker. It’s too bad that conflict comes with the job.

 

Baker’s inability to motivate his players down the stretch partly owed to that trait. He wanted to be a friend and mentor, not a leader. That played well when Scott Rolen was here. It failed this year. Somebody needed to kick some aspirations in the home clubhouse. It never happened.

 

Ballplayers want to be led. Most of us do. We want to be inspired, pushed, challenged, driven. Choose your descriptive. Dusty’s style might have allowed his players to play free and easy. It also encouraged a certain complacency. No one who witnessed this team’s last week of games could come away thinking it needed to win. Wanted to win? Of course. Needed it? Not really.

 

Baker lost points with ownership when he allowed Brandon Phillips to interrupt his daily pre-game media briefing, to berate an Enquirer reporter. He lost points by not saying to Joey Votto, “Hey, man, this is a team game. Runs help us win, not getting on base.’’

 

He lost points by not always being a team player himself. Baker is nothing if not stubborn. Suggestions made by those in charge were rarely heeded, be it lineup issues or the role of Aroldis Chapman.

 

Mostly, Baker is out because his personality stopped working with the players he managed. That happens a lot in baseball. It’s a reason even good managers get fired, usually more than once. Baker is a good manager.

 

First off, Dusty has been managing how many years? This is the first time I have ever seen that written as a problem, if it was, why would the Reds not only hire him, but give him an extension?

 

Where has the same things been said about Ventura other than by people on message boards who come to that conclusion by the 2 or 3 shots of him shown in the dugout per game?

 

I think this move was all about money. I think Reds ownership is thinking that point A to point B crap Krause used when he fired Collins. The article I read about cost of playoff tickets these days seems to me is going to put a lot of pressure on managers to avoid quick playoff departures. From what I read, a couple of these team could basically cover their entire payroll with a run to the WS just on playoff ticket sales alone.

 

[maggsmaggs]

I am convinced there is no "right" mentality to manage. Some players perform better for aggressive managers and some perform better for relaxed managers. Both styles have their pluses and minuses.

[caulfield12]

First off, Dusty has been managing how many years? This is the first time I have ever seen that written as a problem, if it was, why would the Reds not only hire him, but give him an extension?

 

Where has the same things been said about Ventura other than by people on message boards who come to that conclusion by the 2 or 3 shots of him shown in the dugout per game?

 

I think this move was all about money. I think Reds ownership is thinking that point A to point B crap Krause used when he fired Collins. The article I read about cost of playoff tickets these days seems to me is going to put a lot of pressure on managers to avoid quick playoff departures. From what I read, a couple of these team could basically cover their entire payroll with a run to the WS just on playoff ticket sales alone.

 

 

If that's the case, that the Indians were charging the most and were going to bring in something like $20 million per game...then there would be some incentive to fire Francona, but surely that's not the scenario.

 

Likewise, unless the owner was Loria, it would have been nearly impossible for the Pirates to fire Hurdle even had they lost to the Reds (does the frustration of falling apart the two previous 2nd halves not get erased by breaking a two decade long playoff-less streak?).

 

Following your line of logic, the pressure would be on the small market managers (the A's and Rays would be two other teams that jump to mind right away)...and yet Joe Maddon's job right now is probably among the most secure in baseball.

 

Teams that are going to suffer financial setbacks if they get knocked out of the playoffs quickly without having had the opportunity to pocket all that additional revenue windfall.

 

On the flip side of the coin is Don Mattingly, who the feeling is in LA right now that if he doesn't advance to the NL Championship (and perhaps win it or at least look like a convincing manager in losing) that he will be fired, and the Dodgers are THE Evil Empire West right now, yes?

 

With the decision to walk Reed Johnson to face Craig Heyward in the rearview mirror...well, not even sure Ozzie Guillen at his worst would have done something that bone-headed.

 

Finally, there's not a better franchise model in existence than the Cardinals, despite trying to upset the apple cart in the beginning with the 2nd manager hired with ZERO previous professional experience in Matheny.

 

Rightly or wrongly, Ron Washington is going to be on the hottest seat of all beginning April, 2014.

Edited October 5, 2013 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

I am convinced there is no "right" mentality to manage. Some players perform better for aggressive managers and some perform better for relaxed managers. Both styles have their pluses and minuses.

 

Do you honestly feel Jerry Manuel or Terry Bevington were going to lead that 2005 team through the September collapse all the way back to the World Series title?

Edited October 5, 2013 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

Do you honestly feel Jerry Manuel or Terry Bevington were going to lead that 2005 team through the September collapse all the way back to the World Series title?

 

He didn't say anything remotely close to that

[2nd_city_saint787]

I am convinced there is no "right" mentality to manage. Some players perform better for aggressive managers and some perform better for relaxed managers. Both styles have their pluses and minuses.

 

I like what I heard from Joe Maddon, "I just pick the matchups and let the athletes do the work". I think that's really the only mentality the manager needs to have, and it's really just as simple as that. I really do believe the whole thing Hawk said about managers not really mattering....I could have "managed" a team like the Tigers to the playoffs. Just gotta have the right athletes and the Sox simply didn't have that.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

I like what I heard from Joe Maddon, "I just pick the matchups and let the athletes do the work". I think that's really the only mentality the manager needs to have, and it's really just as simple as that. I really do believe the whole thing Hawk said about managers not really mattering....I could have "managed" a team like the Tigers to the playoffs. Just gotta have the right athletes and the Sox simply didn't have that.

 

IF anyone on the Sox ever said that, there would be meltdowns galore.

[caulfield12]

IF anyone on the Sox ever said that, there would be meltdowns galore.

 

 

There would be no more Darin Erstads or Mark Kotsays!!!!

 

No....we can't have that.

[caulfield12]

He didn't say anything remotely close to that

 

 

Maybe if we trade for Joe Maddon and pay the Rays $30 million they'll also give us Dave Martinez?

[hi8is]

Poop

[caulfield12]

"The talent in this organization will do all the convincing that we need," Epstein contends.

 

Until his firing, Sveum was under the impression he would get to manage that talent and planned to attend a few Arizona Fall League games to take more than a peek at the Cubs' top prospects.

 

But that illustrates the commitment that will be needed to teach players as much, if not more, than manage a game.

 

Despite the scouting reports, spray charts, videotape and the early work of Sveum and his staff, the Cubs still lost 96 games in 2013. More preparation is essential to help the development of Starlin Castro, Anthony Rizzo, Jeff Samardzija and Travis Wood.

 

"There has to be a systematic approach," a veteran advance scout said. "You have to get across to the manager to buy into that 'Cubs Way' they preached.

 

"The game has changed, but you don't stop teaching at the major league level. You can make players better defensively and make them better baserunners. Those are ways you teach players to win."

 

But what about working deeper counts in hopes of getting a better pitch to hit, even if it means taking borderline pitches?

 

"The difference between a borderline pitch and a good pitch to hit is two inches," the scout added. "It's easy to say that if you're not in the batter's box."

 

And therein lies the juggling act of the next Cubs' manager — striking a balance in which young players improve, demonstrating strong teaching habits and leadership traits and executing the message of the front office.

[email protected]

[Rowand44]

Do you honestly feel Jerry Manuel or Terry Bevington were going to lead that 2005 team through the September collapse all the way back to the World Series title?

September collapse of 19 and 12.

[southsider2k5]

"The talent in this organization will do all the convincing that we need," Epstein contends.

 

Until his firing, Sveum was under the impression he would get to manage that talent and planned to attend a few Arizona Fall League games to take more than a peek at the Cubs' top prospects.

 

But that illustrates the commitment that will be needed to teach players as much, if not more, than manage a game.

 

Despite the scouting reports, spray charts, videotape and the early work of Sveum and his staff, the Cubs still lost 96 games in 2013. More preparation is essential to help the development of Starlin Castro, Anthony Rizzo, Jeff Samardzija and Travis Wood.

 

"There has to be a systematic approach," a veteran advance scout said. "You have to get across to the manager to buy into that 'Cubs Way' they preached.

 

"The game has changed, but you don't stop teaching at the major league level. You can make players better defensively and make them better baserunners. Those are ways you teach players to win."

 

But what about working deeper counts in hopes of getting a better pitch to hit, even if it means taking borderline pitches?

 

"The difference between a borderline pitch and a good pitch to hit is two inches," the scout added. "It's easy to say that if you're not in the batter's box."

 

And therein lies the juggling act of the next Cubs' manager — striking a balance in which young players improve, demonstrating strong teaching habits and leadership traits and executing the message of the front office.

[email protected]

 

Looks like they have been buying into the Cub Way just fine. 105 years and counting, plus a general manager who is intentionally throwing entire seasons.

[caulfield12]

September collapse of 19 and 12.

 

 

It felt like a collapse that one morning when you woke up and they'd lost to the Royals after having a huge lead.

 

Because we blew through the last week....but that 19-12 is quite misleading as just a number in isolation.

 

And the Indians were white hot...it did have the feel of choking/desperate time before Crede hit that bomb off Riske and everyone could finally breathe a bit easier.

[Jake]

I don't know why anyone would think to compare Robin Ventura and Dusty Baker, short of the fact that they both have managed Chicago baseball teams

[caulfield12]

I don't know why anyone would think to compare Robin Ventura and Dusty Baker, short of the fact that they both have managed Chicago baseball teams

 

 

Do you think Ozzie or Ventura is/was more "friendly" with his players?

 

Isn't that the biggest tightrope for any manager these days...to either be a disciplinarian/tightass (see Bobby Valentine in 2012) and run the risk of burning of burning out your players or losing their respect, or running "too lose a ship" and also losing their respect? (See Terry Francona in Boston his final season).

 

For example, it seemed Ozzie always tried to be "friendly" with his veteran players, but struggled more in his relationships with younger players like Brian Anderson, Beckham and Viciedo.

 

It wasn't really a specific comparison more than one of Baker's weaknesses being compared to what is perceived to be a Ventura weakness...too soft, not committed enough, team isn't playing disciplined enough baseball defensively or fundamentally, too hands-off, delegates too much authority to his assistant coaches, etc. He lost the team's attention. In other words, the White Sox don't fear Ventura enough.

 

We have no idea...it's been a running argument between Balta and Dick Allen for the last 2-3 months about the varying performances of this year's team and the 2012 version with almost the same exact players being the common denominator from 2011-12-13 but obviously something went drastically wrong THIS YEAR, so we're all trying to get a grasp on exactly what that is.

 

It's just to spark or provoke a discussion...it could just as easily be comparing Ventura and Sveum, and why Ventura deserves to keep his job but Dale doesn't, when both teams had huge talent gaps with their competition.

 

Did Ventura "overachieve" in 2012 and "underachieve" in 2013...? And Sveum "underachieved" in both seasons, so he's more at fault for his team's performance? Can that fairly be said, when everyone knew the Cubs were tanking these last two years deliberately?

Edited October 6, 2013 by caulfield12

[Tannerfan]

How are they different?

 

Robin doesn't chew on a toothpick during games.

Robin never hit on my wife in a Phoenix restaurant during spring training.

[GreenSox]

Baker never intentionally walked Chris Getz.

[greg775]

I don't know why Robin suddenly wants the job so bad after turning down the extension last year. I'm hoping it's cause he has a burning desire to win 90 games next season. It is kind of confusing to me, though. He's gone from a reluctant hire to a guy who is giving all indications he wants to do this 20 more years.

[Rowand44]

It felt like a collapse that one morning when you woke up and they'd lost to the Royals after having a huge lead.

 

Because we blew through the last week....but that 19-12 is quite misleading as just a number in isolation.

 

And the Indians were white hot...it did have the feel of choking/desperate time before Crede hit that bomb off Riske and everyone could finally breathe a bit easier.

Even if you take away the 8-2 last 10 games, they were still over .500 for the month. They were never collapsing, the Indians were just on an insane streak.

[witesoxfan]

Baker never intentionally walked Chris Getz.

 

But he did have Shin-Soo Choo sacrifice bunt 3 times this year. He also batted Brandon Phillips cleanup in the playoffs between Votto and Bruce - after Brandon Phillips put up a .706 OPS this year.

[Balta1701]

But he did have Shin-Soo Choo sacrifice bunt 3 times this year. He also batted Brandon Phillips cleanup in the playoffs between Votto and Bruce - after Brandon Phillips put up a .706 OPS this year.

I don't mind this as much...particularly given that his 1 playoff game was against a tough lefty pitcher who had absolutely mauled their 3 lefties several times this year (Liriano). I don't know his bench but it wouldn't be that hard to convince me that benching as many of those 3 as possible was the right move against Liriano, not just breaking them up.

[witesoxfan]

I don't mind this as much...particularly given that his 1 playoff game was against a tough lefty pitcher who had absolutely mauled their 3 lefties several times this year (Liriano). I don't know his bench but it wouldn't be that hard to convince me that benching as many of those 3 as possible was the right move against Liriano, not just breaking them up.

 

I have no problem if you want to split them up, though I think in this situation, it probably would have been unwise to do so. Don't you think you should use your best right handed hitter between them though?

[Balta1701]

I have no problem if you want to split them up, though I think in this situation, it probably would have been unwise to do so. Don't you think you should use your best right handed hitter between them though?

Who was that on the Reds lineup and where in the lineup did he hit?