Sox to Make Hard Push for Granderson

[southsider2k5]

Like 10? What about all the things he did right?

 

EDIT: Ok, 11.

 

Those 19 outs are balanced by 20 stolen bases. Doesn't seem like much of a balance to me. I don't see it is as a positive if you are giving your team an extra out for each stolen base you get.

[Eminor3rd]

I'm a De Aza fan, but I agree with this. The guys who insist the advance metrics showing he wasn't as bad as you think will use the fact he did steal 20 bases and used his speed for extra bases more often than the average runner, which may be true, but it doesn't offset the fact that his baserunning and fielding, I have never seen an OF have a tougher time picking up a ball, were horrible. And I agree, he killed several innings with basepath blunders you don't see from 12 year olds.

 

As for Granderson, it appears the Yankees are going to give him a qualifying offer, which IMO, would probably end any chance he plays for the White Sox.

 

I can think of two off the top of my head: Dayan Viciedo and Avisail Garcia.

 

The point isn't that De Aza is awesome, it's the the whole team sucks, and most of the team sucks worse. Those of us who want this team to turn around quickly cannot also be advocating we replace De Aza before we replace Beckham, Flowers, Phegley, Viciedo, and Gillaspie, at least.

[southsider2k5]

I can think of two off the top of my head: Dayan Viciedo and Avisail Garcia.

 

The point isn't that De Aza is awesome, it's the the whole team sucks, and most of the team sucks worse. Those of us who want this team to turn around quickly cannot also be advocating we replace De Aza before we replace Beckham, Flowers, Phegley, Viciedo, and Gillaspie, at least.

 

I'm not even talking about dumping De Aza unless we find something better. I'm just saying he had a legendarily bad season on the basepaths. Comps for this year are Ozzie Guillen and Chet Lemon. That isn't pretty by any stretch.

[witesoxfan]

Those 19 outs are balanced by 20 stolen bases. Doesn't seem like much of a balance to me. I don't see it is as a positive if you are giving your team an extra out for each stolen base you get.

 

You can take more bases than just second on a steal though. How many times did he get from 1st to 3rd or 2nd to home on a single, or how many times did he score from 1st on a double? Those are indications of good baserunners too.

[Eminor3rd]

You can take more bases than just second on a steal though. How many times did he get from 1st to 3rd or 2nd to home on a single, or how many times did he score from 1st on a double? Those are indications of good baserunners too.

 

Precisely, and that's what the advanced metrics are designed to catch. It's also something that's incredibly difficult to tell from just watching. The fact is that De Aza, after all was said and done, graded out above average as a baserunner this year. You can say he should have graded out much higher without those ~5-6 extra mistakes, but to say he was legendarily bad is totally off base.

[witesoxfan]

Precisely, and that's what the advanced metrics are designed to catch. It's also something that's incredibly difficult to tell from just watching. The fact is that De Aza, after all was said and done, graded out above average as a baserunner this year. You can say he should have graded out much higher without those ~5-6 extra mistakes, but to say he was legendarily bad is totally off base.

 

If there is anyone who was a legendarily bad base runner on the Sox this year, it was Konerko. He was hurt for quite a bit of the season, he was only on at a .313 clip, and he still almost cost the Sox a full win due to how poor he was on the base paths.

[TaylorStSox]

If there is anyone who was a legendarily bad base runner on the Sox this year, it was Konerko. He was hurt for quite a bit of the season, he was only on at a .313 clip, and he still almost cost the Sox a full win due to how poor he was on the base paths.

There's a difference between being slow and running into outs every 6 games because of boneheaded decisions. De Aza was comically bad at times.

[caulfield12]

Lonnie "Skates" Smith?

[witesoxfan]

There's a difference between being slow and running into outs every 6 games because of boneheaded decisions. De Aza was comically bad at times.

 

Again, the disconnect is the difference in definition. You are saying De Aza was a stupid base runner. That's fine. I'm saying he still provided positive value on the base paths - because he did.

 

When I bring up Konerko, I say he was bad because he was terribly ineffective. He always has been.

 

When a guy who normally hits .270/.350/.450 comes out and hits .250/.300/.425, do you say he sucks and he is one of the worst, or do you say he struggled? Conversely, when a guy who comes out and typically hits .225/.275/.325 comes out and hits .225/.275/.325, do you say he's bad at hitting, or do you say "there's a difference between bring untalented at something and making mistakes?"

Edited October 14, 2013 by witesoxfan

[southsider2k5]

There's a difference between being slow and running into outs every 6 games because of boneheaded decisions. De Aza was comically bad at times.

 

Exactly. There really isn't any defending De Aza's baserunning this year.

[Eminor3rd]

Again, the disconnect is the difference in definition. You are saying De Aza was a stupid base runner. That's fine. I'm saying he still provided positive value on the base paths - because he did.

 

When I bring up Konerko, I say he was bad because he was terribly ineffective. He always has been.

 

When a guy who normally hits .270/.350/.450 comes out and hits .250/.300/.425, do you say he sucks and he is one of the worst, or do you say he struggled? Conversely, when a guy who comes out and typically hits .225/.275/.325 comes out and hits .225/.275/.325, do you say he's bad at hitting, or do you say "there's a difference between bring untalented at something and making mistakes?"

 

This ^

[Dick Allen]

I can think of two off the top of my head: Dayan Viciedo and Avisail Garcia.

 

The point isn't that De Aza is awesome, it's the the whole team sucks, and most of the team sucks worse. Those of us who want this team to turn around quickly cannot also be advocating we replace De Aza before we replace Beckham, Flowers, Phegley, Viciedo, and Gillaspie, at least.

I was actually referring to picking it up off the ground. He fumbled and kicked more balls this season than I have ever seen anyone do. Guys would get extra bases because if it bounced off a wall, De Aza very rarely would come up with it clean.

 

What I don't understand is he wasn't like this previously, at least to the extent he was bad this year, and despite what Balta will say, it has nothing to do with spring training.

 

I also think stupid baserunning mistakes which take you out of innings demoralize a team.

 

Paulie can't be a better baserunner. If De Aza wouldn't be so dumb on the basepaths, he could improve his worth a decent amount.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Dick Allen

[TaylorStSox]

Stupid baseball is also contagious, as we saw this year. Is there a stat for that?

[witesoxfan]

I was actually referring to picking it up off the ground. He fumbled and kicked more balls this season than I have ever seen anyone do. Guys would get extra bases because if it bounced off a wall, De Aza very rarely would come up with it clean.

 

What I don't understand is he wasn't like this previously, at least to the extent he was bad this year, and despite what Balta will say, it has nothing to do with spring training.

 

I also think stupid baserunning mistakes which take you out of innings demoralize a team.

 

Paulie can't be a better baserunner. If De Aza wouldn't be so dumb on the basepaths, he could improve his worth a decent amount.

 

It just boggles my mind why Konerko gets a free pass. I understand everything he's done for the organization, but it seems as though the organization is considering bringing him back to have a significant role on the team when he was the biggest culprit out of anyone in the organization last year. He was terrible offensively, defensively, and on the base paths, and he single handedly cost the Sox a ton.

 

Say want you want about guys making outs on the base paths being demoralizing, but I think seeing the Captain throw temper tantrums after popping out is just as demoralizing.

[southsider2k5]

It just boggles my mind why Konerko gets a free pass. I understand everything he's done for the organization, but it seems as though the organization is considering bringing him back to have a significant role on the team when he was the biggest culprit out of anyone in the organization last year. He was terrible offensively, defensively, and on the base paths, and he single handedly cost the Sox a ton.

 

Say want you want about guys making outs on the base paths being demoralizing, but I think seeing the Captain throw temper tantrums after popping out is just as demoralizing.

 

I don't buy that at all. Creating an extra out is going to kill way more than a guy throwing his bad and putting his head down after a popup.

 

[Eminor3rd]

I was actually referring to picking it up off the ground. He fumbled and kicked more balls this season than I have ever seen anyone do. Guys would get extra bases because if it bounced off a wall, De Aza very rarely would come up with it clean.

 

What I don't understand is he wasn't like this previously, at least to the extent he was bad this year, and despite what Balta will say, it has nothing to do with spring training.

 

I also think stupid baserunning mistakes which take you out of innings demoralize a team.

 

Paulie can't be a better baserunner. If De Aza wouldn't be so dumb on the basepaths, he could improve his worth a decent amount.

 

Gotcha, yeah I thought you were referring to routes.

 

I think there's a weird construct in our minds where we accept that guys can have bad years or bad stretches hitting, but not that they can have similar stretches defensively or on the bases. One year doesn't necessarily reflect a guy's true talent. We know De Aza can be better, so I'd bet that next year he will.

 

But again, he still contributed positively overall, even if he could and should have produced MORE positively.

 

Really there are two things going on here: (1) De Aza deserves some negativity because he made more mistakes running than he should have. Ok, this is true. (2) Despite the mistakes, De Aza was among the best baserunning contributors on our team. Being upset at him for his mistakes doesn't mean he needs to go. There's an emotional thing going on here, and there's there's the subject of next year's roster construction. But they aren't mutually exclusive, we can all agree.

[witesoxfan]

I don't buy that at all. Creating an extra out is going to kill way more than a guy throwing his bad and putting his head down after a popup.

 

I was basically stating it for argument's sake, but seeing a guy who is held to that high of esteem struggle like that and pout isn't good for team morale.

 

I also think arguing this is MOVING THE GOALPOSTS. Numbers and examples are brought into it and suddenly we start talking about something subjective like "demoralizing the team." Nobody can say what effect that has on a team, so you are going to disagree about any and all of this. I think De Aza scoring from 1st on a double has an energizing, positive effect on the team as well. I think Alexei making an error has a huge demoralizing effect. I think Dylan Axelrod giving up 12 runs a game has a demoralizing effect. How are we going to measure each of them individually?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

It just boggles my mind why Konerko gets a free pass. I understand everything he's done for the organization, but it seems as though the organization is considering bringing him back to have a significant role on the team when he was the biggest culprit out of anyone in the organization last year. He was terrible offensively, defensively, and on the base paths, and he single handedly cost the Sox a ton.

 

Say want you want about guys making outs on the base paths being demoralizing, but I think seeing the Captain throw temper tantrums after popping out is just as demoralizing.

He doesn't get a free pass from me. His time has past.Hahn needs to have the cojones to say Paulie you mean a lot to this franchise, however we are moving in another direction which doesn't require your services .

Edited October 14, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[southsider2k5]

I was basically stating it for argument's sake, but seeing a guy who is held to that high of esteem struggle like that and pout isn't good for team morale.

 

I also think arguing this is MOVING THE GOALPOSTS. Numbers and examples are brought into it and suddenly we start talking about something subjective like "demoralizing the team." Nobody can say what effect that has on a team, so you are going to disagree about any and all of this. I think De Aza scoring from 1st on a double has an energizing, positive effect on the team as well. I think Alexei making an error has a huge demoralizing effect. I think Dylan Axelrod giving up 12 runs a game has a demoralizing effect. How are we going to measure each of them individually?

 

Which goes back to my point about the baserunning stat that shows De Aza as being a good base runner as being garbage.

[Eminor3rd]

Which goes back to my point about the baserunning stat that shows De Aza as being a good base runner as being garbage.

 

If you're going to call an objective measurement of something garbage, you should tell us why it's garbage and how your intuition and selective human memory are more accurate.

[Jake]

Nobody is here to argue that ADA may be the worst baserunner of all that are roughly his speed and level of aggressiveness. We're just saying that speed and aggressiveness makes his value as a baserunner a net positive compared to the average baserunner in MLB.

 

That doesn't mean ADA shouldn't be correcting his easily correctable mistakes and that making those mistakes may be bad for clubhouse culture and a general winning atmosphere. It does mean that he isn't the worst baserunner ever. Just, perhaps, the dumbest.

[Dick Allen]

If you're going to call an objective measurement of something garbage, you should tell us why it's garbage and how your intuition and selective human memory are more accurate.

I think it was pretty obvious Alejandro De Aza was a stupid baserunner in 2013. Speed was the only thing that made him acceptable by advanced metric standards. If he had average speed, everyone would say he is a bad baserunner. Again this is semantics.

 

BTW, Stone was on Kaplan's show a few weeks ago and stated the White Sox would be looking for someone who understood the game of baseball better than De Aza to play CF next year. Maybe that means De Aza will play LF and/or DH, maybe it means he gone. I do agree about not giving him away, but he was pretty dissappointing running the bases and out in the OF in 2013.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

Which goes back to my point about the baserunning stat that shows De Aza as being a good base runner as being garbage.

 

It's not saying he's a GOOD base runner, it's saying he created value on the base paths, which I think we can say is typically a good thing. Calling people good and bad base runners is incredibly subjective, open to opinion, and almost always going to be affected by emotion, so I try and stay away from that. Yes, De Aza maybe should have been better, but he created positive value on the base paths; No, Konerko can't help that he's slow, but he's not very good as it is and does cost the Sox runs on the basepaths.

[Eminor3rd]

I think it was pretty obvious Alejandro De Aza was a stupid baserunner in 2013. Speed was the only thing that made him acceptable by advanced metric standards. If he had average speed, everyone would say he is a bad baserunner. Again this is semantics.

 

BTW, Stone was on Kaplan's show a few weeks ago and stated the White Sox would be looking for someone who understood the game of baseball better than De Aza to play CF next year. Maybe that means De Aza will play LF and/or DH, maybe it means he gone. I do agree about not giving him away, but he was pretty dissappointing running the bases and out in the OF in 2013.

 

I agree with everything you said, but the point is that our ideas of valuation are off-base. ADA made 10ish dumb baserunning mistakes, which is a handful more than he would be expected to make on average. This hurt his value, but his overall contribution remained positive. I understand that those mistakes may have FELT like disasters that outweigh the positives of what he did, but our emotional reaction doesn't affect the actual value. That's why we want to use statistics to quantify this value, so that our biases can't affect it and make us make a mistake.

 

So if you (the collective you, not specifically you) think that a statistic is off, then be all means argue that the statistic is off. But make that argument based on your understanding of the stat and why it won't add up. It's sole purpose is to be there to inform you better than your human brain, which is notoriously flawed for this type of exercise, so that fact that it may have felt like ADA's errors were more costly than his contributions is nothing like evidence against the numbers.

[2nd_city_saint787]

After reading all the comments on De Aza's base running I'm convinced that a good comparison is Lexi's D. Lexi is a great SS, one of the best in the bigs, but some people only see his mistakes and determine he's garbage there, this seems to be the same scenario for De Aza's base running.