Dick Allen Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Since 2000, Joey Votto was the 3rd pick in the 2nd round as was Jordan Zimmerman. The rest have had career WARs equal to that of the average Soxtalk poster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 QUOTE (fathom @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 03:07 PM) Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Sox would be losing a lot of their draft allotment money if they lose their 2nd round pick. Looks like it's about $1.25 mill or so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?q...aft_type=junreg If you go back to all the White Sox 2nd round draft picks since 2000, only Jeff Weaver and Bob Wickman had career WAR's over 10 (neither of them with the Sox). Wickman was traded to the Yankees with Melido Perez and Domingo Jean for the unforgettable Steve Sax. Ryan Sweeney is 3rd, at 6.3. You do have quite a few notable recent 2nd rounders, including Beck, Danish, Erik Johnson, Holmberg, Jeremy Reed and Danny Wright. Edited November 14, 2013 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 03:08 PM) Looks like it's about $1.25 mill or so Yes, but if you weren't earmarking that for the pick and going to go cheap on that pick just to spread that amount around later, it even further decreases it's value, at least player-wise. So I take it pretty much a wash since you wouldn't be paying that player anyway. I can understand a team walking away from signing a free agent because they would lose their first round pick. But not solely because they lose the 2nd rounder. IMO, the Sox thought they could get Granderson fairly reasonably earlier, but with the QO out there, they probably realize they could not. I also think they put Granderson's worth at more than just his numbers. I think he was/is the type of veteran they would like influencing the young guys. Edited November 14, 2013 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 (edited) http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox/de-aza...&ocid=yahoo Hahn on frustration with DeAza....and his positive attributes (seems like he was taking a page out of the message boards.) Edited November 16, 2013 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 QUOTE (fathom @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 03:07 PM) Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Sox would be losing a lot of their draft allotment money if they lose their 2nd round pick. You'd lose a second rounder amount Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 03:08 AM) http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox/de-aza...&ocid=yahoo Hahn on frustration with DeAza....and his positive attributes (seems like he was taking a page out of the message boards.) The guy struck out way too much. Hahn gets it, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 12:08 AM) The guy struck out way too much. Hahn gets it, though. Granderson strikes out more….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 03:12 PM) Yes, but if you weren't earmarking that for the pick and going to go cheap on that pick just to spread that amount around later, it even further decreases it's value, at least player-wise. So I take it pretty much a wash since you wouldn't be paying that player anyway. I can understand a team walking away from signing a free agent because they would lose their first round pick. But not solely because they lose the 2nd rounder. IMO, the Sox thought they could get Granderson fairly reasonably earlier, but with the QO out there, they probably realize they could not. I also think they put Granderson's worth at more than just his numbers. I think he was/is the type of veteran they would like influencing the young guys. Exactly. The Sox have roughly $9.5 million for the draft. If that pick is worth $1.4 million our whatever it is, you lose the ability to spend that money. That really hurts the Sox chances of going under slot in Round 2 or 3 and grabbing a lot of wildcard over slot guys in later rounds. It just hurts the overall flexibility and Granderson's impact would not justify the move in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 01:08 AM) The guy struck out way too much. Hahn gets it, though. That's why you're such a huge fan of Jeff Keppinger, I know, since he doesn't strike out that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 14, 2013 -> 10:08 PM) Since 2000, Joey Votto was the 3rd pick in the 2nd round as was Jordan Zimmerman. The rest have had career WARs equal to that of the average Soxtalk poster. So we have a 15% chance of landing a superstar for 6 years on the cheap? Seems good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 I can only see adding Granderson as the start of a larger overhaul-one that I'd be on board with provided other moves are made. With his salary commitment of 3 years, $45 mill. which has been talked about, De Aza, Viciedo, and Beckham would likely go [as their combined salaries would be close to $10 mill.]. Other than the Mets, who would be in the same position as the Sox in losing a 2nd round pick to sign him, not many teams would be going three years. $15 mill. for him. [ideally, $12 mill. per would be about right]. I'd want the Sox to trade for a very good CF prospect/ guy who could step in right away; ie Adam Eaton/ Peter Bourjos. Granderson would be in LF. Semien, Luery Garcia or Carlos Sanchez would likely be able to cover 2b. Of course, C would have to be fixed via trade, to cover Granderson's salary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 One name who would be far cheaper than Granderson is David Murphy. He had a horrible 2013 but was solid prior to that. Maybe even on a 1 year deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 15, 2013 -> 06:08 PM) http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox/de-aza...&ocid=yahoo Hahn on frustration with DeAza....and his positive attributes (seems like he was taking a page out of the message boards.) I have always stayed out of the arguments about De Aza mainly because some arguing about his positive attributes seem to think those arguing against him have sort sort of hatred for him based on remembrance of his baserunning blunders. 26 outs on the bases is ridiculously high considering 8 of them were caught stealing. To me it practicully negates his ability to go from 1st to 3rd on a single or 1st to home on a double and his 20 stolen bases. His UZR went from 8.9 in 2011 (only 376 innings ) to -1.3 (1133 innings) in 2012 to -2.5 (1315 innings) last year. His WAR from 2.5 and 2.3 the last 2 years to -.30. Furthur the Bill James 2014 handbook grades De Aza as the worst CF with a -18 DRS. I'm sure the 2014 Bill James handbook would have more on his baserunning too but I'm relying on this http://www.southsidesox.com/2013/11/16/511...s-handbook-2014 , so I have limited info. All in all De Aza had a pretty bad year and those claiming he is adequate in CF are not right based on his UZR and especialy his DRS. Edited November 16, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 03:57 PM) That's why you're such a huge fan of Jeff Keppinger, I know, since he doesn't strike out that much. I 'hate' Kepp if that's the right word because he stunk. As a fan I want to win and I feel like he was yet another black hole in our lineup. As far as DeAza i'd rather give him another chance than guys like Beckham and Dunn. DeAza frustrates me to no end, but if it's possible to turn it around, he might have hope. Reading Hahn's comments make me realize Hahn knows exactly what he has in DeAza and will make the right decision on him. I'd like to read his takes on Dunn and Becks as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 04:05 PM) I 'hate' Kepp if that's the right word because he stunk. As a fan I want to win and I feel like he was yet another black hole in our lineup. That's the problem with you though...your complaints about guys don't follow any pattern, you just decide you like some guys and don't like some guys. Your entire complaint about De Aza can't be "oh he strikes out too much" if you also think the guy who doesn't strike out as much "Stinks". Use some consistency. Everyone gets what De Aza's weaknesses last year were. Strikeouts might have been a little bit of a problem for him, but they weren't anywhere near the worst of his problems. If he struck out 25% less, he'd have been a slightly better player but he'd still have been extremely frustrating. That's why it seems nuts that your complaint about him at first was "he strikes out too much". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 03:12 PM) That's the problem with you though...your complaints about guys don't follow any pattern, you just decide you like some guys and don't like some guys. Your entire complaint about De Aza can't be "oh he strikes out too much" if you also think the guy who doesn't strike out as much "Stinks". Use some consistency. Everyone gets what De Aza's weaknesses last year were. Strikeouts might have been a little bit of a problem for him, but they weren't anywhere near the worst of his problems. If he struck out 25% less, he'd have been a slightly better player but he'd still have been extremely frustrating. That's why it seems nuts that your complaint about him at first was "he strikes out too much". Just because someone strikes out too much, doesn't mean you have to think a guy who rarely strikes out is good. It is not being inconsistent. It isn't mutually exclusive. There are people who don't like pitchers who don't throw hard. Are they then locked into thinking every hard thrower is good? The problem with the Greg bashers is you rush to criticize everything he posts before you actually think about it. Edited November 16, 2013 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 04:18 PM) Just because someone strikes out too much, doesn't mean you have to think a guy who rarely strikes out is good. It is not being inconsistent. The problem with the Greg bashers is you rush to criticize everything he posts before you actually think about it. Let's try this. How would you react to a person saying "I don't like Tyler Flowers. He didn't throw enough runners out last year". Seems like I'm missing a few things doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 03:20 PM) Let's try this. How would you react to a person saying "I don't like Tyler Flowers. He didn't throw enough runners out last year". Seems like I'm missing a few things doesn't it? Fine. Flowers stunk. Are you telling me if you think someone strikes out too much, in your world you are locked into liking players just because they don't strike out? I think everyone probably even yourself, likes that Keppinger rarely strikes out. But that doesn't mean they have to like the rest of what he brings to the table. Edited November 16, 2013 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 04:23 PM) Fine. Flowers stunk. Are you telling me if you think someone strikes out too much, in your world you are locked into liking players just because they don't strike out? No, but it'd be nice if it seemed like people would take the full package into account. I can actually understand people coming down on the negative side on De Aza, I can get that...but it's not because he struck out too much. It's because he disappointed in a number of different ways, including baserunning, fielding, mental mistakes, and reliability with the bats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 03:26 PM) No, but it'd be nice if it seemed like people would take the full package into account. I can actually understand people coming down on the negative side on De Aza, I can get that...but it's not because he struck out too much. It's because he disappointed in a number of different ways, including baserunning, fielding, mental mistakes, and reliability with the bats. Rick Hahn thought he struck out too much. De Aza has some value, but when the team you follow plays as bad as the 2013 White Sox, there are a lot of players a lot of people are sick of watching. Maybe it seems logical, maybe not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 01:18 PM) Just because someone strikes out too much, doesn't mean you have to think a guy who rarely strikes out is good. It is not being inconsistent. It isn't mutually exclusive. There are people who don't like pitchers who don't throw hard. Are they then locked into thinking every hard thrower is good? The problem with the Greg bashers is you rush to criticize everything he posts before you actually think about it. The point is that Greg picks and chooses who he likes or dislikes based on no recognizable or consistent philosophy or set of attributes. He points out certain flaws in some players and yet ignores them in others. He's all over a guy like Rios and yet he tries to convince us that Konerko should receive a pass. He wants us to pay to trade Dunn, yet wants us to pay to bring Konerko back. Fine, he's entitled to his opinions. I just think some folks would prefer he put a bit more substance into them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Last June we Drafted Tyler Danish with #2 pick. Now he is a top prospect. Why give up that same 2014 pick to the Skankies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Are we still likely to make a run at him like we were the day this thread was posted? Did the Abreu signing completely diminish the chances of a Granderson to the White Sox signing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 16, 2013 -> 09:18 PM) Just because someone strikes out too much, doesn't mean you have to think a guy who rarely strikes out is good. It is not being inconsistent. It isn't mutually exclusive. There are people who don't like pitchers who don't throw hard. Are they then locked into thinking every hard thrower is good? The problem with the Greg bashers is you rush to criticize everything he posts before you actually think about it. Amen to Dick Allen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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