Sox to Make Hard Push for Granderson

[witesoxfan]

Just because someone strikes out too much, doesn't mean you have to think a guy who rarely strikes out is good. It is not being inconsistent. It isn't mutually exclusive. There are people who don't like pitchers who don't throw hard. Are they then locked into thinking every hard thrower is good? The problem with the Greg bashers is you rush to criticize everything he posts before you actually think about it.

 

Except that we do think about it. De Aza, Ramirez, Dunn, Viciedo, Beckham, Quintana, Santiago, Reed, and whoever have all sucked and need to be shipped out. Pierzynski and Konerko have done no wrong. Explain that. Explain wanting to trade Adam Dunn, eating salary, and resigning Paul Konerko. Maybe, just maybe, we actually do think about we're saying, we don't pigeonhole players, we all have different opinions of players, and we all respect why we generally do and do not like other players, but we do not respect why greg likes players because he states "trade Dunn, he sucks!; release Keppinger, he's a terrible!; resign Konerko because he's Konerko and how could you not like Konerko?"

 

Generally speaking, people have some sort of objectivity towards other players. Greg misses that boat more often than not.

 

Amen to Dick Allen!

 

and see above

[Jose Abreu]

Keep in mind that Abreu and Dunn will combine for 400 strikeouts as well. Do we really want to make that 575/600?

[LittleHurt05]

Keep in mind that Abreu and Dunn will combine for 400 strikeouts as well. Do we really want to make that 575/600?

 

With 100 home runs, sure I'll take that many Ks.

[Jose Abreu]

With 100 home runs, sure I'll take that many Ks.

Have we forgotten the ways of Ozzie Ball?

[iamshack]

Except that we do think about it. De Aza, Ramirez, Dunn, Viciedo, Beckham, Quintana, Santiago, Reed, and whoever have all sucked and need to be shipped out. Pierzynski and Konerko have done no wrong. Explain that. Explain wanting to trade Adam Dunn, eating salary, and resigning Paul Konerko. Maybe, just maybe, we actually do think about we're saying, we don't pigeonhole players, we all have different opinions of players, and we all respect why we generally do and do not like other players, but we do not respect why greg likes players because he states "trade Dunn, he sucks!; release Keppinger, he's a terrible!; resign Konerko because he's Konerko and how could you not like Konerko?"

 

Generally speaking, people have some sort of objectivity towards other players. Greg misses that boat more often than not.

 

 

 

and see above

Amen to witesoxfan!

[Princess Dye]

Why do people put De Aza on the sucked/ship him out list? He's a 2 to 3 WAR guy who's cheap. What is wrong with this?

 

If you dont like him leading off then the problem is just him leading off. For what he costs, the problems lie elsewhere on this team.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2013 by Jose Paniagua

[Jose Abreu]

Why do people put De Aza on the sucked/ship him out list? He's a 2 to 3 WAR guy who's cheap. What is wrong with this?

 

If you dont like him leading off then the problem is just him leading off. For what he costs, the problems lie elsewhere on this team.

I agree. If he could just fix that god-awful baserunning and maybe get a slightly better glove...

[Kyyle23]

Have we forgotten the ways of Ozzie Ball?

 

Ozzie ball contained a lot of home runs

[Jose Abreu]

Ozzie ball contained a lot of home runs

Not in 05

[Kyyle23]

Not in 05

 

Really?

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CH...ml?mobile=false

 

200 isn't a lot?

[Jake]

What makes us think that Abreu will strike out 200 times?

 

He struck out 11.9% of the time last year, 10.75% before that. No evidence of being a high strikeout player in the past. Viciedo was about 18% in Cuba and was 20% in MLB last year. Alexei had a 10.3% K rate in Cuba and...11.8% career in MLB, 10.1% last season.

 

Most Cubans have seen their walk rates fluctuate more dramatically, likely due to a ton of intentional walks that aren't going to be there in American baseball.

[Jake]

Really?

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CH...ml?mobile=false

 

200 isn't a lot?

 

5th most in MLB that season

 

AJP - 18 HR

PK - 40 HR

Gooch - 15 HR

Uribe - 16 HR

Crede - 22 HR

Pods - 0 HR

Rowand - 13 HR

Dye - 31 HR

Jurassic Carl - 23 HR

Big Frank - 12 HR (34 games)

 

Might not look too crazy until you look at this year's lineup:

 

Flowers - 10 HR

Josh Phegley - 4 HR

PK - 12 HR

Gordon - 5 HR

Alexei - 6 HR

Gillaspie - 13 HR

Keppinger - 4 HR

Viciedo - 14 HR

ADA - 17 HR

Rios - 12 HR

Avisail - 5 HR

Adam Dunn - 34 HR

 

Our lineup this past year was just filled with guys that weren't worrying pitchers. After Dunn, Tank is probably making pitchers worry the most -- but there is a pretty systematic way to deal with him at this point. I don't think they were ever worried about ADA, which is why he hit so many HR. Who else scares them? Flowers? I think that's the best reason for change.

 

With Avisail growing up and Abreu stepping in, there should be a much more legitimate scare factor that goes into seeing the meat of our lineup. Teams should anticipate losing their leads when those guys come up -- it should at least sound like a possibility.

 

[Jose Abreu]

Really?

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CH...ml?mobile=false

 

200 isn't a lot?

Well, compared to other Ozzie years, no.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CH...8-batting.shtml

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CH...6-batting.shtml

[Kyyle23]

Well, compared to other Ozzie years, no.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CH...8-batting.shtml

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CH...6-batting.shtml

 

It was the 5th most home runs in the LEAGUE. And you just disproved your own Ozzie ball theory.

 

Ozzie had teams that could hit it out of the park, period. Just because he gave away outs sometimes doesn't mean his teams didn't have power

[Jose Abreu]

It was the 5th most home runs in the LEAGUE. And you just disproved your own Ozzie ball theory.

 

Ozzie had teams that could hit it out of the park, period. Just because he gave away outs sometimes doesn't mean his teams didn't have power

Well, we were also discussing strikeouts, and if you compare Ozzie's time to Robin's so far, we have far more strikeouts per season then we used to with Ozzie ball.

[Vance Law]

Well, we were also discussing strikeouts, and if you compare Ozzie's time to Robin's so far, we have far more strikeouts per season then we used to with Ozzie ball.

 

You should take a peek at the way strikeouts have been trending in ALL of baseball the last several years.

[Kyyle23]

Well, we were also discussing strikeouts, and if you compare Ozzie's time to Robin's so far, we have far more strikeouts per season then we used to with Ozzie ball.

 

Even then, the strikeout difference is 200, and that is attributed to one player, Adam Dunn(189). Not the myth that is Ozzie Ball.

 

Ozzie Ball was a really good pitching staff, not an offensive Philosophy/system

[Dick Allen]

Well, compared to other Ozzie years, no.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CH...8-batting.shtml

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CH...6-batting.shtml

I believe the percentage of runs scored via the home run in 2005 was exactly the same or slightly higher than 2004. The 2005 offense relied heavily on the long ball.

[LittleHurt05]

I believe the percentage of runs scored via the home run in 2005 was exactly the same or slightly higher than 2004. The 2005 offense relied heavily on the long ball.

 

The '05 Sox playing "small-ball" is one of the biggest myths around. People remember Pods at the top of the lineup, and seem to think the whole team just played small-ball. The rest of the lineup had some major pop to it, just like almost all Sox teams in the 00s. The difference was the outstanding pitching.

 

If you think about the playoffs, at least 7 of the 11 playoff wins had huge game-changing home runs.

Edited November 20, 2013 by LittleHurt05

[Jose Abreu]

Even then, the strikeout difference is 200, and that is attributed to one player, Adam Dunn(189). Not the myth that is Ozzie Ball.

 

Ozzie Ball was a really good pitching staff, not an offensive Philosophy/system

What about Jim Thome?

[Jake]

The '05 Sox playing "small-ball" is one of the biggest myths around. People remember Pods at the top of the lineup, and seem to think the whole team just played small-ball. The rest of the lineup had some major pop to it, just like almost all Sox teams in the 00s. The difference was the outstanding pitching.

 

If you think about the playoffs, at least 7 of the 11 playoff wins had huge game-changing home runs.

 

The team was just good. Good teams are going to hit some bombs. They also are probably going to have some big stolen bases as well. God I miss that year, I wish we could have enjoyed it more instead of assuming the bottom would fall out from beneath us

[witesoxfan]

What about Jim Thome?

 

The 2006 White Sox struck out 1,056 times, which was the 5th most strikeouts by a team in the league.

The 2013 White Sox struck out 1,207 times, which was the 8th most strikeouts by a team in the league.

 

The White Sox are making better contact now than they did in 2006 relative to the league. That's what you have to look at. You can't say "the 2005 White Sox team ERA was 3.61, which really isn't that much better than the 2013 White Sox, who put up a 4.00 ERA" because the talent level has shifted from the offensive side of the ball to pitching and defense. The 2012 White Sox scored 748 runs, which was 4th best in the AL. The 2005 White Sox scored 741 runs, which was 9th best; thus, the 2012 White Sox offense was far better than the 2005 White Sox offense.

[Kyyle23]

What about Jim Thome?

 

What about him? Thome hit homeruns and struck out. He averaged 140 strikeouts a season for the Sox,

[Jake]

The 2006 White Sox struck out 1,056 times, which was the 5th most strikeouts by a team in the league.

The 2013 White Sox struck out 1,207 times, which was the 8th most strikeouts by a team in the league.

 

The White Sox are making better contact now than they did in 2006 relative to the league. That's what you have to look at. You can't say "the 2005 White Sox team ERA was 3.61, which really isn't that much better than the 2013 White Sox, who put up a 4.00 ERA" because the talent level has shifted from the offensive side of the ball to pitching and defense. The 2012 White Sox scored 748 runs, which was 4th best in the AL. The 2005 White Sox scored 741 runs, which was 9th best; thus, the 2012 White Sox offense was far better than the 2005 White Sox offense.

 

This is another reason why wRC+ is such a great stat. It takes this into account. My favorite example was reading it before realizing that it adjusts for year...

 

Juan Gonzalez had a pretty great career while it lasted. I was looking over it on FanGraphs. In 1997, in just 133 games, Juan Gon mashed 42 bombs with 131 RBI to go with his .296 average and .335 OBP. This earned him a 127 wRC+ -- which is pretty damn great, don't get me wrong -- but doesn't feel nearly high enough for those counting numbers.

 

So now, in 2013, let's looking at Marlon Byrd. He batted .291 with a .336 OBP (I wanted someone who didn't walk a ton, like Juan Gon). He struck out quite a bit more than Juan Gon, 25% vs. 17% for Juan. Byrd hit 24 homers with 88 RBI. Nice little season, 147 games so a bit more than Juan.. Sure as hell isn't as good as 42 HR/131 RBI. Byrd's wRC+ in 2013? 136. That's not just better, but notably better.

 

This is why it is so important to adjust for the year when we talk about statistics. This isn't a huge gap in time we're talking about, either, but the league can shift pretty quickly as we see with the 2005/2012 Sox example.

 

[beck72]

Even though the sox would lose a 2nd round pick for signing him, Granderson makes too much sense not to go after. Provided he can be had on a 3 year deal, for around $10 mil. Per. His presence and proven production would help the sox add young guys at the bottom of the lineup in 2014 and the next few years. And would provide a big lefty bat to go with Avasail and Abreu on the right.

 

Given how quiet the Granderson market seems to be, few teams seem willing to add Curtis because it will cost them a 1st round pick.