Sox to Make Hard Push for Granderson

[2nd_city_saint787]

You guys are avoiding DAs point about this team being just 1 year removed from being 4th in the AL in runs scored.

 

I think it's completely plausible to think they can return to that esp. if Abreu hits like we're all hoping.

 

I'm all for Granderson. He walks at a pretty good rate and he won't clog the base paths. Batting him 3rd ahead of Abreu-Dunn-Garcia would be quite the sexy middle of the lineup. If they can then trade Santiago for yet another piece then the offense should be more than good enough to get the Sox back in contention.

 

 

[BlackSox13]

You guys are avoiding DAs point about this team being just 1 year removed from being 4th in the AL in runs scored.

 

I think it's completely plausible to think they can return to that esp. if Abreu hits like we're all hoping.

 

I'm all for Granderson. He walks at a pretty good rate and he won't clog the base paths. Batting him 3rd ahead of Abreu-Dunn-Garcia would be quite the sexy middle of the lineup. If they can then trade Santiago for yet another piece then the offense should be more than good enough to get the Sox back in contention.

The Sox don't have a catcher to replace AJ's production, Avi's too inexperienced to count on replacing Rios' numbers just yet, same can be said about Abreu replacing Paulie's numbers and despite Alexei's base stealing going up his power has been on a steady decline and we have no idea what to expect from Dunn. We also have no idea what to expect from a possibile healthy full season of Viciedo or Beckham, and not sure what to expext from Gillespie for that matter.

 

I wasn't avoiding DA's point at all as I was ignoring it because there wasn't a realistic point to be made in the first place. Too many unknowns and Granderson won't be able to solve all that! He is just one potential plug on a team with many holes.

Edited November 29, 2013 by StRoostifer

[Dick Allen]

The Sox don't have a catcher to replace AJ's production, Avi's too inexperienced to count on replacing Rios' numbers just yet, same can be said about Abreu replacing Paulie's numbers and despite Alexei's base stealing going up his power has been on a steady decline and we have no idea what to expect from Dunn. We also have no idea what to expect from a possibile healthy full season of Viciedo or Beckham, and not sure what to expext from Gillespie for that matter.

 

I wasn't avoiding DA's point at all as I was ignoring it because there wasn't a realistic point to be made in the first place. Too many unknowns and Granderson won't be able to solve all that! He is just one potential plug on a team with many holes.

It isn't realistic if people play like they did last year, but players do play better and many get worse. Coming into 2012, no one thought AJ could put up the numbers he put up. Obviously a lot will have to go right, but that isn't unreasonable . I don't think Granderson will be a White Sox, I just don't understand, especially with limits on what you can pay draft picks and most international guys, why you can't build your minor leagues and try to win at the major league level. There are a few teams that seem to be able to do it.

[Lemon_44]

I don't think it's any strecth at all to think Garcia and Abreu put up better numbers than Konerko and Rios did last year. I'd be surprised if they didn't. If you can move De Aza (I've been hoping for a deal involving him to SF for Sandoval), I would be ok with signing Granderson.

 

With the Sox pitching, I think adding a couple bats could lead to a very quick turnaround. Viciedo showed improvement during the 2nd half and that trend shoud continue and adding a guy like Sandoval puts 3B in order. Dunn is in a contract year and we pretty much know what we're getting with him, but if he can step up his numbers, even slightly, the Sox can be right there in the thick of things.

 

Now, if you want to keep throwing a lineup out there with likes of Keppinger, Gillapsie, Beckham, Flowers, and two youngsters at SS and CF, then, yes, signing Granderson would be stupid. But that's also wasting the prime years of a good young, cost controlled pitching staff.

[BlackSox13]

It isn't realistic if people play like they did last year, but players do play better and many get worse. Coming into 2012, no one thought AJ could put up the numbers he put up. Obviously a lot will have to go right, but that isn't unreasonable . I don't think Granderson will be a White Sox, I just don't understand, especially with limits on what you can pay draft picks and most international guys, why you can't build your minor leagues and try to win at the major league level. There are a few teams that seem to be able to do it.

I agree rebuilding the farm can be done on the fly but Granderson would cause the Sox a 2nd round pick which itself goes against the rebuilding of the farm in the first place. I like what Granderson would do for the Sox but not at the expense of a 2nd round pick that is high in the draft order to begin with, then there's still the unknowns on the MLB roster. If the Sox were closer to contention I would be all over the idea of signing Granderson but unfortunately this was a 99 loss team and likely to take more than one off season to turn it around.

 

The Sox have this off season, the June 14 amateur draft , the 14 intl draft and next off season to find out about these unknowns. It gives young guys like Micah Johnson, Semien, Sanchez etc to develope more and have a better idea of what we really have going into 15. 2014 will be a telling season on many levels.

[GreatScott82]

I agree rebuilding the farm can be done on the fly but Granderson would cause the Sox a 2nd round pick which itself goes against the rebuilding of the farm in the first place. I like what Granderson would do for the Sox but not at the expense of a 2nd round pick that is high in the draft order to begin with, then there's still the unknowns on the MLB roster. If the Sox were closer to contention I would be all over the idea of signing Granderson but unfortunately this was a 99 loss team and likely to take more than one off season to turn it around.

 

The Sox have this off season, the June 14 amateur draft , the 14 intl draft and next off season to find out about these unknowns. It gives young guys like Micah Johnson, Semien, Sanchez etc to develop more and have a better idea of what we really have going into 15. 2014 will be a telling season on many levels.

Very good post. Well said. I agree with you. We simply need to continue to improve the farm and taking away a 2nd rounder does not help out this cause. I can see them attempting to make a trade for a CF. This trade will most likely include one of A. Ramirez or Beckham and a pitcher. This will depend on who they go after of course. They can still sign second tier guys to fill the holes at 3b and C positions. However, I have a feeling we will be getting that new CF via trade. Stay tuned... winter meetings are around the corner.

Edited November 30, 2013 by GreatScott82

[TheFutureIsNear]

You guys are avoiding DAs point about this team being just 1 year removed from being 4th in the AL in runs scored.

 

I think it's completely plausible to think they can return to that esp. if Abreu hits like we're all hoping.

 

I'm all for Granderson. He walks at a pretty good rate and he won't clog the base paths. Batting him 3rd ahead of Abreu-Dunn-Garcia would be quite the sexy middle of the lineup. If they can then trade Santiago for yet another piece then the offense should be more than good enough to get the Sox back in contention.

 

4 of the top 5 guys in OPS are gone from that team. And Dunn is the 5th and he's getting more and more unreliable by the day(OPS is dropping a shocking amount year by year).

 

Anybody who is expecting Abreu to match a .857 OPS or Garcia to maintain close to a .850 OPS needs to take off the rose colored glasses. Is it possible? Sure, but we are talking about rookies. 1 of which I don't think has even stepped foot on American soil yet. Expecting either to do so is unrealistic.

 

And then there is the catcher spot.....AJ hit out of his mind that year, I'd be shocked if our C spot produces 3/4 of what he did that year.

 

Our offense is still 2 or 3 guys away from our team being in real contention. We've already traded off 2 big pieces and suffered through 1 horrible season, why ruin progress with a waste of $ stopgap that isn't enough to get the team over the hump? Personally I see being bad for another year as the best possible thing for the franchise and its future. 2015 is a whole different story though, I'd be upset with anything less than a playoff appearance.

[2nd_city_saint787]

The Sox don't have a catcher to replace AJ's production, Avi's too inexperienced to count on replacing Rios' numbers just yet, same can be said about Abreu replacing Paulie's numbers and despite Alexei's base stealing going up his power has been on a steady decline and we have no idea what to expect from Dunn. We also have no idea what to expect from a possibile healthy full season of Viciedo or Beckham, and not sure what to expext from Gillespie for that matter.

 

I wasn't avoiding DA's point at all as I was ignoring it because there wasn't a realistic point to be made in the first place. Too many unknowns and Granderson won't be able to solve all that! He is just one potential plug on a team with many holes.

 

By my, perhaps twisted, logic they don't have to replicate what those guys did run for run. The Sox lost 52 of their 99 games by 2 runs or less. To me, and perhaps only to me, that means they're not as far away as some might think. Once again, perhaps only in my world, I think if you improve 3 positions, Abreu already being one, Granderson being another, and a trade could bring another.

 

I see both arguments and believe they're both valid, Hahn can go either way.

[TheFutureIsNear]

By my, perhaps twisted, logic they don't have to replicate what those guys did run for run. The Sox lost 52 of their 99 games by 2 runs or less. To me, and perhaps only to me, that means they're not as far away as some might think. Once again, perhaps only in my world, I think if you improve 3 positions, Abreu already being one, Granderson being another, and a trade could bring another.

 

I see both arguments and believe they're both valid, Hahn can go either way.

 

What about the bullpen? That has a huge impact on all of those 2 run games. It seems like we are going to be relying on Reed, Lindstrom, Jones and a bunch of rookies. And what about our 3,4, and 5 SP's? A lot of youth and an injury prone and inconsistent Danks. Is it not possible that the back of our rotation struggles a lot?

 

For the record, I fell pretty good about our young pitching for the future, both Sp and Rp. But they are going to do what young pitchers do and struggle. I don't see how this upcoming season is going to go well unless you are hoping and praying for everything possible to go right. Abreu, Garcia, Vicidieo, Santiago, Johnson, and at least 3 of the young BP arms would all have to perform at least up to or exceeding expectations. Just too much to do in 1 year.

[BlackSox13]

Very good post. Well said. I agree with you. We simply need to continue to improve the farm and taking away a 2nd rounder does not help out this cause. I can see them attempting to make a trade for a CF. This trade will most likely include one of A. Ramirez or Beckham and a pitcher. This will depend on who they go after of course. They can still sign second tier guys to fill the holes at 3b and C positions. However, I have a feeling we will be getting that new CF via trade. Stay tuned... winter meetings are around the corner.

Thank you sir and couldn't agree more about cf. Not sure who they would trade for but the Sox best talent is still at AA or below so a trade is the right idea. I read somewhere Micah Johnson could be converted to cf with his speed but he needs more time and I like the idea of him taking Gordon's job hopefully by ST 15. Would be great to have speed from the 2B position again. I believe your right when you Hahn will pull off a trade for cf.

 

4 of the top 5 guys in OPS are gone from that team. And Dunn is the 5th and he's getting more and more unreliable by the day(OPS is dropping a shocking amount year by year).

 

Anybody who is expecting Abreu to match a .857 OPS or Garcia to maintain close to a .850 OPS needs to take off the rose colored glasses. Is it possible? Sure, but we are talking about rookies. 1 of which I don't think has even stepped foot on American soil yet. Expecting either to do so is unrealistic.

 

And then there is the catcher spot.....AJ hit out of his mind that year, I'd be shocked if our C spot produces 3/4 of what he did that year.

 

Our offense is still 2 or 3 guys away from our team being in real contention. We've already traded off 2 big pieces and suffered through 1 horrible season, why ruin progress with a waste of $ stopgap that isn't enough to get the team over the hump? Personally I see being bad for another year as the best possible thing for the franchise and its future. 2015 is a whole different story though, I'd be upset with anything less than a playoff appearance.

If only I could have said it this well. Fine job!

 

By my, perhaps twisted, logic they don't have to replicate what those guys did run for run. The Sox lost 52 of their 99 games by 2 runs or less. To me, and perhaps only to me, that means they're not as far away as some might think. Once again, perhaps only in my world, I think if you improve 3 positions, Abreu already being one, Granderson being another, and a trade could bring another.

 

I see both arguments and believe they're both valid, Hahn can go either way.

Actually your logic isn't twisted at all. I didnt realize the Sox lost 52 games by two runs or less so I see what you're saying about the gap not being as big as perceived. This is a very good point indeed. Imo, I still stay away from Granderson but those 2 runs make the idea much easier to grasp than before you made that point. Good call.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

By my, perhaps twisted, logic they don't have to replicate what those guys did run for run. The Sox lost 52 of their 99 games by 2 runs or less. To me, and perhaps only to me, that means they're not as far away as some might think. Once again, perhaps only in my world, I think if you improve 3 positions, Abreu already being one, Granderson being another, and a trade could bring another.

 

I see both arguments and believe they're both valid, Hahn can go either way.

You know you're not the only one. I've been singing that same song right along with you for quite a while. I usually use the 1 run and extra inning games . Going to 2 run losses seems to be pushing it a bit. My nature is to want to beleive the Sox want to be competitive however I'm not convinced yet they mean it. We'll see what else Hahn does and then see if I beleive. But I truly beleive they need to support the pitching staff with some much better gloves more than I think more bats are needed. If Abreu and Garcia don't hit we're strarting from scratch again next year.

[Jake]

My first reaction to the "close losses" stat is that it has no context. I have no clue if that is more than normal or what. Our pythagorean W-L had us with 67 wins (versus 63), which says that we did have an unlucky distribution of runs. If we had been pretty damn lucky in our distribution of runs, we're just getting into the mid-70s of wins. For reference, we won 85 games in 2012 and our pythagorean W-L was 88 wins, so we were actually "unlucky" last year.

 

I put unlucky in quotes because luck isn't the only thing that affects the distribution of runs. Obviously, good teams may "pick their spots" so to speak better. For instance, a good team will surrender a larger portion of runs in games that they're winning big than a bad team.

[Jose Abreu]

My first reaction to the "close losses" stat is that it has no context. I have no clue if that is more than normal or what. Our pythagorean W-L had us with 67 wins (versus 63), which says that we did have an unlucky distribution of runs. If we had been pretty damn lucky in our distribution of runs, we're just getting into the mid-70s of wins. For reference, we won 85 games in 2012 and our pythagorean W-L was 88 wins, so we were actually "unlucky" last year.

 

I put unlucky in quotes because luck isn't the only thing that affects the distribution of runs. Obviously, good teams may "pick their spots" so to speak better. For instance, a good team will surrender a larger portion of runs in games that they're winning big than a bad team.

I feel like we always get "unlucky" with Pythagorean W-L.

[Jose Abreu]

Didn't Michael Bourn sign with Cleveland in March? I hope Granderson doesn't wait that long.

[Jake]

Didn't Michael Bourn sign with Cleveland in March? I hope Granderson doesn't wait that long.

 

Wouldn't shock me, since they are both the type of guy that you don't mind giving some money to, but don't really want to give up a draft pick to get.

[ShandyMan]

Wouldn't shock me, since they are both the type of guy that you don't mind giving some money to, but don't really want to give up a draft pick to get.

 

If we could get Granderson on a decent deal without having to give up a pick, then I would have no problem with that.

[Balta1701]

Anybody who is expecting Abreu to match a .857 OPS or Garcia to maintain close to a .850 OPS needs to take off the rose colored glasses.

If we're not expecting an .857 or better OPS from Abreu next year then that contract looks really, really dumb.

[TheFutureIsNear]

If we're not expecting an .857 or better OPS from Abreu next year then that contract looks really, really dumb.

 

Its a 6 year deal. He's a rookie who will be not only be adjusting to MLB pitching, but the entire culture of the country. You're honestly going to tell me you expect him to perform that well right off the bat? .857 OPS would have been good for 21st in all of baseball last year and 8th among 1B.

 

Plus you act as if the $7M he will be making each of the next 2 years is a big contract. Thats peanuts in todays MLB. If he's playing everyday and maintaining a .775ish OPS its great value.

 

Not saying Abreu can't or won't be a good player, but .850 OPS in his 1st year just seems a little unrealistic to me.

[Balta1701]

Its a 6 year deal. He's a rookie who will be not only be adjusting to MLB pitching, but the entire culture of the country. You're honestly going to tell me you expect him to perform that well right off the bat? .857 OPS would have been good for 21st in all of baseball last year and 8th among 1B.

 

Plus you act as if the $7M he will be making each of the next 2 years is a big contract. Thats peanuts in todays MLB. If he's playing everyday and maintaining a .775ish OPS its great value.

 

Not saying Abreu can't or won't be a good player, but .850 OPS in his 1st year just seems a little unrealistic to me.

He has an opt-out after 3 years and he's got a $10 million signing bonus this year which is paid right now in addition to that $7 million. If he's not putting up .850+ OPS numbers next year that's a disappointment. If he need a "rookie year" or two to adapt, then all of a sudden he's opting out of his contract and the Sox have gotten very little production from him.

[TheFutureIsNear]

He has an opt-out after 3 years and he's got a $10 million signing bonus this year which is paid right now in addition to that $7 million. If he's not putting up .850+ OPS numbers next year that's a disappointment. If he need a "rookie year" or two to adapt, then all of a sudden he's opting out of his contract and the Sox have gotten very little production from him.

 

 

Ehh I think you might be a little confused on his contract. White Sox control him for 6 years, but he does have the option to at 1 point opt out of said contract and start his arbitration process. A clause most likely put in if he's vastly over performing his contract that only goes as high as $12M. If performing very well arbitration will certainly pay him more.

 

 

"the powerful first baseman can opt out of his contract when he first becomes eligible for arbitration and opt into arbitration despite the White Sox maintaining control over his contract."

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/cws/white-...p;vkey=news_cws

Edited November 30, 2013 by TheFutureIsNear

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

My first reaction to the "close losses" stat is that it has no context. I have no clue if that is more than normal or what. Our pythagorean W-L had us with 67 wins (versus 63), which says that we did have an unlucky distribution of runs. If we had been pretty damn lucky in our distribution of runs, we're just getting into the mid-70s of wins. For reference, we won 85 games in 2012 and our pythagorean W-L was 88 wins, so we were actually "unlucky" last year.

 

I put unlucky in quotes because luck isn't the only thing that affects the distribution of runs. Obviously, good teams may "pick their spots" so to speak better. For instance, a good team will surrender a larger portion of runs in games that they're winning big than a bad team.

My first reaction to Pythag speak ( and I mean no disrespect by this ) is huh ? I'm talking strictly baseball. We didnt score runs or field the ball very well and lost a lot of low scoring close games. Let's assume Abreu hits and Garcia hits and we get a few gloves , a few BP arms maybe one other reliable hitter and get rid of 3 of the main culprits from last year. I know I'm assuming a lot but if we get the same type of pitching we got in 2012 get a little more run production and much better fielding, smarter base running and the BP holds up well I think we can be a .500 team which would be a huge improvement .

 

Bad luck to me = bad fielding , bad base running and bad hitting. Improve on those things and your luck changes.

Edited November 30, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[TheFutureIsNear]

My first reaction to Pythag speak ( and I mean no disrespect by this ) is huh ? I'm talking strictly baseball. We didnt score runs or field the ball very well and lost a lot of low scoring close games. Let's assume Abreu hits and Garcia hits and we get a few gloves , a few BP arms maybe one other reliable hitter and get rid of 3 of the main culprits from last year. I know I'm assuming a lot but if we get the same type of pitching we got in 2012 get a little more run production and much better fielding, smarter base running and the BP holds up well I think we can be a .500 team which would be a huge improvement .

 

Bad luck to me = bad fielding , bad base running and bad hitting. Improve on those things and your luck changes.

 

Is all of that worth it for a .500 team? Even if we change all of the "luck" and manage to win 85 games that's still not anywhere really near the playoffs in the AL. IDK, maybe I'm different, but I've always been a championship contention or bust type of person. I'd rather lose for 2 straight years and come back with a well built team than throw together team that is simply designed not to loose a lot but has no real shot of winning anything when its all said and done.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Is all of that worth it for a .500 team? Even if we change all of the "luck" and manage to win 85 games that's still not anywhere really near the playoffs in the AL. IDK, maybe I'm different, but I've always been a championship contention or bust type of person. I'd rather lose for 2 straight years and come back with a well built team than throw together team that is simply designed not to loose a lot but has no real shot of winning anything when its all said and done.

I don't think the Sox have the kind of organization to make huge leaps in one years time. Most organizations built step by step . You'd prefer the Sox lose another 90+ games and then all of a sudden compete somehow ? I'd really like to hear how they would accomplish that given that every lousy year will mean lower payroll. I want to compete in 2014 also but right now there's no indication of that considering we hear about an $80-85M payroll and letting Konerko decide if he will play for the Sox next year. Maybe Hahn has some surprises up his sleeve but getting back to.500 in one year would be a big step in the right direction for me if it can be accomplished with a youthful core and promising players in the system . The Sox are just not going to sign big money free agents and you can't trade fool's gold for real gold.

[Jerksticks]

Is all of that worth it for a .500 team? Even if we change all of the "luck" and manage to win 85 games that's still not anywhere really near the playoffs in the AL. IDK, maybe I'm different, but I've always been a championship contention or bust type of person. I'd rather lose for 2 straight years and come back with a well built team than throw together team that is simply designed not to loose a lot but has no real shot of winning anything when its all said and done.

 

Haha. Too funny.

 

Call me different, but I prefer good tasting food to bad tasting food.

[Balta1701]

I don't think the Sox have the kind of organization to make huge leaps in one years time. Most organizations built step by step . You'd prefer the Sox lose another 90+ games and then all of a sudden compete somehow ? I'd really like to hear how they would accomplish that given that every lousy year will mean lower payroll. I want to compete in 2014 also but right now there's no indication of that considering we hear about an $80-85M payroll and letting Konerko decide if he will play for the Sox next year. Maybe Hahn has some surprises up his sleeve but getting back to.500 in one year would be a big step in the right direction for me if it can be accomplished with a youthful core and promising players in the system . The Sox are just not going to sign big money free agents and you can't trade fool's gold for real gold.

The last time the White Sox lost 90 games, they had an even worse system than the one they have right now, and they came out and won the division the next year without making many major FA signings other than keeping their own guys (and could very well have gone farther had their key guy on offense not broken his hand).