Sox to Make Hard Push for Granderson

[2nd_city_saint787]

FWIW, Cespedes had an .861 OPS his first year here, at the same age, and Abreu is supposed to be the better of the 2 players.

 

Puig, who I'll give you the fact that he had time to "adjust" in the minors, had a .925 OPS.

 

Anything short of an .850 OPS will be a disappointment.

[TheFutureIsNear]

Haha. Too funny.

 

Call me different, but I prefer good tasting food to bad tasting food.

 

Yay for mediocrity and not winning playoff games!

[Jerksticks]

I understand that what the cubs are doing has brainwashed some people. If everything goes right for them, then they will have 3-5 core players come up to the big leagues together in a few years, and then after a few years of adjusting, they should contend. 2018?

 

All Hahn is doing is basically saying "f*** that".

 

We just added 2 potentially dynamic young guys to our already massive young core at the MLB level. I would take our position over theirs every time.

 

While I respect the rebuild thought process, I just can't see how it applies in the least bit to the White Sox. We already have tons of good, young guys having success at the MLB level.

 

Keep adding good young guys Rick because at the end of the day, all you need to win is good players.

[Jake]

It won't blow my mind if Abreu posts a sub-.800 OPS, but that is by no means my expectation. Even if it does happen, I would expect that it be weighed down by a very slow start that he rallies back from

[Balta1701]

It won't blow my mind if Abreu posts a sub-.800 OPS, but that is by no means my expectation. Even if it does happen, I would expect that it be weighed down by a very slow start that he rallies back from

It wouldn't "blow my mind" either, but the word I used was "disappointed" and I'd stand by that.

[Jose Abreu]

I understand that what the cubs are doing has brainwashed some people. If everything goes right for them, then they will have 3-5 core players come up to the big leagues together in a few years, and then after a few years of adjusting, they should contend. 2018?

 

All Hahn is doing is basically saying "f*** that".

 

We just added 2 potentially dynamic young guys to our already massive young core at the MLB level. I would take our position over theirs every time.

 

While I respect the rebuild thought process, I just can't see how it applies in the least bit to the White Sox. We already have tons of good, young guys having success at the MLB level.

 

Keep adding good young guys Rick because at the end of the day, all you need to win is good players.

I have to admit that what they're doing over there is pretty cool. I mean, Baez, Soler, Bryant, Olt... I'm sure I'm forgetting a few. Also, what about Zapata? He hasn't been that popular on this board, but he should be here in a few years.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The last time the White Sox lost 90 games, they had an even worse system than the one they have right now, and they came out and won the division the next year without making many major FA signings other than keeping their own guys (and could very well have gone farther had their key guy on offense not broken his hand).

That's the exception rather than the rule. Sure I have hope they can do that again but realistically I'm looking to get to a place to improve from. Improve this year 15-20 games this year and 15 20 games for 2015 and you're competing for the division by 2015 barring any catastrophic injuries to key pieces. Otherwise who knows how long we're looking at. Right now we're looking at so much that needs to go right that I can't even imagine getting a playoff spot next year.

[Balta1701]

That's the exception rather than the rule. Sure I have hope they can do that again but realistically I'm looking to get to a place to improve from. Improve this year 15-20 games this year and 15 20 games for 2015 and you're competing for the division by 2015 barring any catastrophic injuries to key pieces. Otherwise who knows how long we're looking at. Right now we're looking at so much that needs to go right that I can't even imagine getting a playoff spot next year.

If someone can explain to me what it was mentally that took that team from the most consistent, reliable defense in the league in 2012 to the least consistent, most unreliable defense in the league in 2013 I could then imagine them being right back to competitive with the roster they have now.

 

They have talent through the lineup and guys who could contribute. They are really loaded on pitching and that could overcome even some struggles from the offense. But seriously, what the heck happened to this team's focus? In 2012 they were right on for 5 months. In 2013 they were...Ooh look a squirrel!

[TheFutureIsNear]

I understand that what the cubs are doing has brainwashed some people. If everything goes right for them, then they will have 3-5 core players come up to the big leagues together in a few years, and then after a few years of adjusting, they should contend. 2018?

 

All Hahn is doing is basically saying "f*** that".

 

We just added 2 potentially dynamic young guys to our already massive young core at the MLB level. I would take our position over theirs every time.

 

While I respect the rebuild thought process, I just can't see how it applies in the least bit to the White Sox. We already have tons of good, young guys having success at the MLB level.

 

Keep adding good young guys Rick because at the end of the day, all you need to win is good players.

 

We'll agree to disagree on the white Sox having a ton of young talent. We clearly view the talent on the team way different

 

[Balta1701]

So we have an Ace, a #2 and a couple of good options for the back of the rotation. Along with a closer in the bullpen. Then we probably have a strong middle of the order type and maybe a good RF who could 5-6 in the order. Not a ton of talent in any way.

You know what though? The setup you just outlined isn't far at all from a team that can challenge for the wild card. That's a core stronger than the one Cleveland brought to the table last year...they just supplemented it with a couple FA' signings and a few guys who gave them decent numbers at positions of weakness.

 

And they weren't the most unfocused team in baseball. That's important too.

 

A couple of those other positions like SS, maybe CF, are filled with veteran guys who are a little more expensive but who will contribute at least decent performances even if they don't carry the team.

 

If the Sox could get the kind of production out of their LF that he was paid for when he signed so many years ago...all of a sudden you've got a really solidly built team...if they can remember how to pay attention.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

If someone can explain to me what it was mentally that took that team from the most consistent, reliable defense in the league in 2012 to the least consistent, most unreliable defense in the league in 2013 I could then imagine them being right back to competitive with the roster they have now.

 

They have talent through the lineup and guys who could contribute. They are really loaded on pitching and that could overcome even some struggles from the offense. But seriously, what the heck happened to this team's focus? In 2012 they were right on for 5 months. In 2013 they were...Ooh look a squirrel!

I don't think it's explainable . When you look at the Sox individually as defenders the only above average fielder they have is Alexei. Beckham is about league average maybe better than that by a hair since maybe his range was affected by injuries .The outfield sucked , the infield sucked, the catching sucked. Murphy's Law took over in 2013 , 2012 the opposite of Murphy's Law happened. Whatever glue held them together in 2012 dissolved in 2013.

[Jake]

If "everything falls his way" Hector Santiago is an ace

[ILMOU]

While I agree with that majority of your post we don't really have a "massive" young core or "tons" of good, young players.

 

As far as players in the bigs...

 

We have an ace in Chris Sale and that is the hardest thing in baseball to acquire. Plus, he is signed to one of the best team-friendly contracts in baseball.

 

We have a solid 2-3 in Jose Quintana. While I am in a bit more skeptical than most he is very nice piece to any rotation.

 

We have two middle of the rotation, cost controlled starters who both have the potential for a good 2/3 if everything falls their way in Hector Santiago and Erik Johnson. I am not ready to say the same about Andre Rienzo but with our organization's track record with pitching I wouldn't be surprised if he stuck as a serviceable 5.

 

We have a cost controlled closer who could hold his own in Addison Reed.

 

On the hitting side...

 

I really think we found a middle of the order stud in Jose Abreu but the jury is still out.

 

Then there is Avisail Garcia, who I am not as sold on as most, but he has the potential to be some type of a Juan Encarnacion/Alex Rios/Magglio Ordonez right fielder and hold up the 5 spot in the order.

 

That's pretty much it as far as young talent. Otherwise we have some mid-tier talent on the cusp of making it into the bigs like Marcus Semien, Daniel Webb, Chris Beck and maybe Chris Bassit.

 

So we have an Ace, a #2 and a couple of good options for the back of the rotation. Along with a closer in the bullpen. Then we probably have a strong middle of the order type and maybe a good RF who could 5-6 in the order. Not a ton of talent in any way.

 

I mostly agree that the core isn't massive, but nor is it barren. With a reasonable degree of luck, we'll have a whole host of pitching prospects and several current 25 man roster-spot holders that could gain some value or a lot of value in the first few months of the season. And we'll want to trade them, because we should have reasonably ready replacements at their positions. I'm talking about guys like Danks, Beckham, Reed and Keppinger, specifically, and DeAza, maybe, assuming they all survive the offseason.

 

And Lexi is still under contract for a few years and could be considered "core" if he returns to elite defensive play, and isn't asked to carry a large offensive load. And Viciedo is still a potential positive as he remains inexpensive and under control.

 

I remain optimistic. Upgrade at catcher and LHRP, and maybe 3B, let the kids fight it out in ST for the 24th and 25th spots, a couple bullpen spots, and possibly the 5th starter, reevaluate in early June, and be ready to wheel and deal at that time.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I completely agree with you and I was just going to make a case using Cleveland as the example. It's just the poster who I had quoted was a bit overzealous in his breakdown of our "young core."

 

And of course I always go back to the A's/Rays. Those teams are never sexy but they just churn out pitching and play the game the right way. We already have the pitching part going for us.

 

I say:

 

Get a catcher: Jaso/Grandal/Castro/Rosario.

 

Move Santiago/Quintana IF the right piece comes in return.

 

Sign/pick up a LH SU guy. (Eric O'Flaherty??)

 

Sign a middle/back of the rotation pitcher who our organization likes.

 

 

 

I really don't think that's too much to ask for and I really think the FO is going to shock this board and pick up an established bat to hit 5/6 or even 2nd.

You and Balta think much like me as far as trying to compete for 2014 but I think we know in our hearts that it's not likely to happen. About the only thing I can say for what I really want to see happen besides what you outlined is that a strong defensive CF is a must. I think that kind of player sets the tone for the whole team defensively. I know thats probably not backed up statistically in any way, just my basic baseball instincts about being strong defensively up the middle, especially CF. We also need a few guys who don't view OBP as a disease and more lefthanded hitters.

Edited November 30, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Jose Abreu]

You and Balta think much like me as far as trying to compete for 2014 but I think we know in our hearts that it's not likely to happen. About the only thing I can say for what I really want to see happen besides what you outlined is that a strong defensive CF is a must. I think that kind of player sets the tone for the whole team defensively. I know thats probably not backed up statistically in any way, just my basic baseball instincts about being strong defensively up the middle, especially CF. We also need a few guys who don't view OBP as a disease.

But after 2007, did we want to compete in 2008? Many of us did not, but we did, and we all know what happened.

[Balta1701]

You and Balta think much like me as far as trying to compete for 2014 but I think we know in our hearts that it's not likely to happen. About the only thing I can say for what I really want to see happen besides what you outlined is that a strong defensive CF is a must. I think that kind of player sets the tone for the whole team defensively. I know thats probably not backed up statistically in any way, just my basic baseball instincts about being strong defensively up the middle, especially CF. We also need a few guys who don't view OBP as a disease and more lefthanded hitters.

I came into this offseason saying "Hahn needs 1 piece to have a team I can say can compete if everything goes right and that's Abreu". He nailed that one. Our weakest position by far last year was 1b; we expected it to carry us, we paid it to carry us, and it was one of the worst in baseball.

 

Beyond that...we have a couple positions that could hurt us. Catcher is the big worry...but I still say I have no clue what we have there. If the scouts say it won't get better then something needs to be done...but I'd also be surprised if they said that given how they were willing to push guys upwards last year.

 

This team could compete if everything goes right as it is. Catcher is my next worry on the list, but that one I can't make the call because I don't know what Hahn has been told by his guys.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

But after 2007, did we want to compete in 2008? Many of us did not, but we did, and we all know what happened.

The Sox were terrible in every aspect of the game last year except pitching. Defense , hitting, fundamentals ,base running , on base percentage, the bench and leadership all crumbled. That's just way too much to fix . I can't really comment on 2008 because I'd have to do a ton of reseach on 2007 and 2008 and see where the Sox were in relation to the rest of the division. The Royals , Indians and Tigers are all looking strong now. Maybe if Viciedo can pull an MVP type season out of his ass like Quentin did it's possible if we can get some good glove guys and OBP guys somehow.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I came into this offseason saying "Hahn needs 1 piece to have a team I can say can compete if everything goes right and that's Abreu". He nailed that one. Our weakest position by far last year was 1b; we expected it to carry us, we paid it to carry us, and it was one of the worst in baseball.

 

Beyond that...we have a couple positions that could hurt us. Catcher is the big worry...but I still say I have no clue what we have there. If the scouts say it won't get better then something needs to be done...but I'd also be surprised if they said that given how they were willing to push guys upwards last year.

 

This team could compete if everything goes right as it is. Catcher is my next worry on the list, but that one I can't make the call because I don't know what Hahn has been told by his guys.

I guess thats where we differ because everything going right for the same basic team means some really bad players and I mean bad at a lot of different aspects on playing baseball the right way all of a sudden become real good players . I don't even like to think of the odds of that happening because it's depressing.

[Balta1701]

The Sox were terrible in every aspect of the game last year except pitching. Defense , hitting, fundamentals ,base running , on base percentage, the bench and leadership all crumbled. That's just way too much to fix . I can't really comment on 2008 because I'd have to do a ton of reseach on 2007 and 2008 and see where the Sox were in relation to the rest of the division. The Royals , Indians and Tigers are all looking strong now. Maybe if Viciedo can pull an MVP type season out of his ass like Quentin did it's possible if we can get some good glove guys and OBP guys somehow.

The 07 white sox put up the fewest runs in the league, worst OBP in the league, worst sb% age in the league, 12th in ERA out of 14 teams, and 12th in errors out of 14 teams.

 

It's actually kind of remarkable with how bad that 07 team performed that the '13 team lost more games than them. The 2007 Sox were terrible in every aspect of the game, including pitching. Every aspect of the game you mentioned.

 

In 07, Cleveland went to the ALCS and barely were beaten by the Red Sox, the Tigers were a year removed from a world series birth, and the Twins had solid 06 and 08 campaigns at the bookends. The Tigers, Indians, and Twins could all be called strong competitors - it literally came down to the last day of the season the next year. It wasn't the AL East but that was a solid division with a number of legit, evenly-matched competitors. And the White sox became one of those competitors in 1 season after being incredibly bad in 07. Andy Gonzalez as a starting IF bad.

[Jose Abreu]

I still remember some of those scrubs... Andy Gonzalez, Luis Terrero, Ryan Bukvich, Ehren Wasserman. Wow.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The 07 white sox put up the fewest runs in the league, worst OBP in the league, worst sb% age in the league, 12th in ERA out of 14 teams, and 12th in errors out of 14 teams.

 

It's actually kind of remarkable with how bad that 07 team performed that the '13 team lost more games than them. The 2007 Sox were terrible in every aspect of the game, including pitching. Every aspect of the game you mentioned.

 

In 07, Cleveland went to the ALCS and barely were beaten by the Red Sox, the Tigers were a year removed from a world series birth, and the Twins had solid 06 and 08 campaigns at the bookends. The Tigers, Indians, and Twins could all be called strong competitors - it literally came down to the last day of the season the next year. It wasn't the AL East but that was a solid division with a number of legit, evenly-matched competitors. And the White sox became one of those competitors in 1 season after being incredibly bad in 07. Andy Gonzalez as a starting IF bad.

You covered some of what I'd research. But I'd also look at how many roster spots turned over and at what cost. and who had career years , who regressed etc. If you're expecting Abreu to be the 2014 Quentin the main difference is Quentin's didn't cost the Sox $17M in the 1st year they got him. But I understand your point , it's just too much of a reach for me to consider it seriously with basically the same roster like you suggested.

Edited November 30, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Balta1701]

You covered some of what I'd research. But I'd also look at how many roster spots turned over and at what cost. and who had career years , who regresed etc. If you're expecting Abreu to be the 2014 Quentin the main difference is Quentin's didn't cost the Sox $17 in the 1st year they got him. But I understand your point , it's just too much of a reach for me to consider it seriously with basically the same roster like you suggested.

The other big roster change was Alexei taking over 2b and Uribe moving from 2b to 3b. In fact, 3b got somewhat worse with the bats because 2007 was Josh Fields's one good season. They brought in Nick Swisher with the goal of having him take over CF but that was such a disaster that Wise and Griffey wound up taking over the position for significant portions of the season. They also traded Jon Garland for Orlando Cabrera to fill their SS spot, he was the leadoff hitter for much of the year in 08 but he was basically just tolerable, .705 OPS and .334 OBP out of the leadoff spot isn't that great.

 

The other thing that made a big difference was that Floyd and Danks were rookie pitchers in 2007, struggling or in the minors for much of the year, and they pitched like really good big league starters in 2008. We also spent some money on the bullpen in 2008 to bring in Linebrink and Dotel, they were useful pieces as well.

 

The things that made a difference were...getting the pitching staff infused with Floyd and Danks (biggest improvement), adding 2 real key bats in Quentin and Alexei, getting a few guys back towards their career norms (Buehrle), and basically getting rid of the black holes that did nothing. They still weren't that great on defense or baserunning in 08, but they had solid pitching and adding that MVP quality bat in the middle of their lineup did wonders.

 

I'm really hoping we just added that MVP caliber bat to our order. And frankly, yeah I'll be disappointed if he's not somewhere close to that.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The other big roster change was Alexei taking over 2b and Uribe moving from 2b to 3b. In fact, 3b got somewhat worse with the bats because 2007 was Josh Fields's one good season. They brought in Nick Swisher with the goal of having him take over CF but that was such a disaster that Wise and Griffey wound up taking over the position for significant portions of the season. They also traded Jon Garland for Orlando Cabrera to fill their SS spot, he was the leadoff hitter for much of the year in 08 but he was basically just tolerable, .705 OPS and .334 OBP out of the leadoff spot isn't that great.

 

The other thing that made a big difference was that Floyd and Danks were rookie pitchers in 2007, struggling or in the minors for much of the year, and they pitched like really good big league starters in 2008. We also spent some money on the bullpen in 2008 to bring in Linebrink and Dotel, they were useful pieces as well.

 

The things that made a difference were...getting the pitching staff infused with Floyd and Danks (biggest improvement), adding 2 real key bats in Quentin and Alexei, getting a few guys back towards their career norms (Buehrle), and basically getting rid of the black holes that did nothing. They still weren't that great on defense or baserunning in 08, but they had solid pitching and adding that MVP quality bat in the middle of their lineup did wonders.

 

I'm really hoping we just added that MVP caliber bat to our order. And frankly, yeah I'll be disappointed if he's not somewhere close to that.

That 08 team also led the ML in HR's by 21 over the next best HR hitting team ( Phillies) and 35 for the next best AL team ( Detroit).

[Balta1701]

That 08 team also led the ML in HR's by 21 over the next best HR hitting team ( Phillies) and 35 for the next best AL team ( Detroit).

Let's get 90 from Abreu and Viciedo next year and we'll pull that off with ease.

[TheFutureIsNear]

Hate to be THAT guy but there is a lot of talk of an '08 team that won 1 playoff game and then failed the following year. That should hardly be the team we are trying to emulate