Garcia is a RF

[Dunt]

Please stop talking about moving him to CF.

[southsider2k5]

Deep and well articulated. Well worth a new thread.

[Dunt]

Deep and well articulated. Well worth a new thread.

 

Im sorry, I see it in any thread remotely involving him right now. Sure he is relatively mobile, but his defensive metrics in no way show we belongs in CF. With defense being an enormous weakness of the Sox this season, I see no reason for the Sox to weaken themselves defensively further and put him in CF.

[southsider2k5]

Im sorry, I see it in any thread remotely involving him right now. Sure he is relatively mobile, but his defensive metrics in no way show we belongs in CF. With defense being an enormous weakness of the Sox this season, I see no reason for the Sox to weaken themselves defensively further and put him in CF.

 

Leading with that would have been much better. Videos or stats would have been best of all.

[witesoxfan]

Im sorry, I see it in any thread remotely involving him right now. Sure he is relatively mobile, but his defensive metrics in no way show we belongs in CF. With defense being an enormous weakness of the Sox this season, I see no reason for the Sox to weaken themselves defensively further and put him in CF.

 

He's played 207.2 innings out there. That's a sample size of 23 games. Fangraphs suggests that it takes 3 years worth of data for fielding metrics to become statistically significant, which is roughly the equivalent of 450 games. Currently, we have 5.1% of the suggested amount of relevant information. To compare this to something more tangible, this is like watching 31 at bats of a minor league hitter and declaring "HE CAN'T HIT."

 

(of course, knowing this group, that sounds about right)

[Dick Allen]

He's played 207.2 innings out there. That's a sample size of 23 games. Fangraphs suggests that it takes 3 years worth of data for fielding metrics to become statistically significant, which is roughly the equivalent of 450 games. Currently, we have 5.1% of the suggested amount of relevant information. To compare this to something more tangible, this is like watching 31 at bats of a minor league hitter and declaring "HE CAN'T HIT."

 

(of course, knowing this group, that sounds about right)

There are plenty of players 31 ABs can determine what they are. Garcia could probably get by in CF, but chances are with his body type, it's not a postion you will see him playing or really want to see him playing several years from now.

[witesoxfan]

There are plenty of players 31 ABs can determine what they are. Garcia could probably get by in CF, but chances are with his body type, it's not a postion you will see him playing or really want to see him playing several years from now.

 

Players also get better too as they grow acclimated to the position. If you think he can get by, then I think he can get better. I'm not advocating that he play CF, but he's plenty athletic to handle it.

[NorthSideSox72]

There are plenty of players 31 ABs can determine what they are. Garcia could probably get by in CF, but chances are with his body type, it's not a postion you will see him playing or really want to see him playing several years from now.

On bolded: no.

 

On the rest: I know it is an extreme exception, but... Kirby Puckett says hello. Just saying, body type tells you SOMETHING, but it is not a definite thing.

 

What it comes down to is, you need to see him play there to really get a read. Metrics are useless at his amount of play.

 

[Balta1701]

Not just in terms of whether the metrics are reliable...for god's sake, he's played 200 innings there, right?

 

People do learn things with time. If he worked at the position and was given a shot there, it's also entirely plausible that he could "learn" and "improve" upon his performance at the position.

[Eminor3rd]

It's not his body or tool box that worries me, it's that he looks clueless going after fly balls. I'm sure he'll get better at wherever they stick him, but I think some guys just don't have the instincts to man CF - you need to get good reads, good jumps, and take good routes to cover all of that ground well.

[Balta1701]

It's not his body or tool box that worries me, it's that he looks clueless going after fly balls. I'm sure he'll get better at wherever they stick him, but I think some guys just don't have the instincts to man CF - you need to get good reads, good jumps, and take good routes to cover all of that ground well.

I would counter that most guys would look clueless getting reads off the bat if they are in a position they haven't played before.

[bmags]

I say we may as well. If you have a talented athletic player you may as well put them at the position hardest to fill with quality players.

[Eminor3rd]

I would counter that most guys would look clueless getting reads off the bat if they are in a position they haven't played before.

 

That's fair, but I think he's looked just as clueless in RF. That's what is making me unusually judgmental about his chances in CF given the small amount of time I've seen him out there.

[Dick Allen]

On bolded: no.

 

On the rest: I know it is an extreme exception, but... Kirby Puckett says hello. Just saying, body type tells you SOMETHING, but it is not a definite thing.

 

What it comes down to is, you need to see him play there to really get a read. Metrics are useless at his amount of play.

When Kirby Puckett came into the league, he was a good CF. Garcia is not. Kirby also basically moved to RF when he was 33. Chances are, if Garcia does play CF, he won't be a plus defensively, and he won't be there for long. If you are 240 as a 22 year old, you probably will be 250-260 as a 30 year old. There aren't many 250 lb. CFs.

 

As for my 31 AB comment, it is true. Most professional players require 0 major league ABs to determine they aren't going to be very good.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Dick Allen

[NorthSideSox72]

When Kirby Puckett came into the league, he was a good CF. Garcia is not. Kirby also basically moved to RF when he was 33. Chances are, if Garcia does play CF, he won't be a plus defensively, and he won't be there for long. If you are 240 as a 22 year old, you probably will be 250-260 as a 30 year old. There aren't many 250 lb. CFs.

 

As for my 31 AB comment, it is true. Most professional players require 0 major league ABs to determine they aren't going to be very good.

 

This is completely nonsensical, and you know it. You are trying to blend scouting with results, two different things. 31 AB's will not tell you what you need to know about a hitter.

 

 

[Dunt]

As for my 31 AB comment, it is true. Most professional players require 0 major league ABs to determine they aren't going to be very good.

 

Ugh, what?

[Dick Allen]

This is completely nonsensical, and you know it. You are trying to blend scouting with results, two different things. 31 AB's will not tell you what you need to know about a hitter.

How many major league ABs will it require to tell if Jared Mitchell can hit in the big leagues? I'm guessing less than 31.

 

Most players don't get an opportunity to get 31 AB at the major league level. I bet of the 1000s who did not, there probably were a handful that would have turned into productive players. There are some guys you can tell right away aren't going to make it.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

How many major league ABs will it require to tell if Jared Mitchell can hit in the big leagues? I'm guessing less than 31.

 

Most players don't get an opportunity to get 31 AB at the major league level. I bet of the 1000s who did not, there probably were a handful that would have turned into productive players. There are some guys you can tell right away aren't going to make it.

 

You're right in some sense. We are talking about players who are competent. You said this yourself about Garcia in CF. Could you tell right away that Ventura was going to make it? How about Chris Snopek? Or Greg Norton?

[Balta1701]

You're right in some sense. We are talking about players who are competent. You said this yourself about Garcia in CF. Could you tell right away that Ventura was going to make it? How about Chris Snopek? Or Greg Norton?

How many AB's did it take to tell that Beckham wouldn't?

[Eminor3rd]

How many major league ABs will it require to tell if Jared Mitchell can hit in the big leagues? I'm guessing less than 31.

 

Most players don't get an opportunity to get 31 AB at the major league level. I bet of the 1000s who did not, there probably were a handful that would have turned into productive players. There are some guys you can tell right away aren't going to make it.

 

See, this is one of those things where I feel you argue JUST for the sake of arguing. Clearly he's talking about something else entirely -- if the guyis good enough to earn a look at the big league level, 31 AB isn't enough to tell you anything, because both the hitter and the pitchers and random luck have lots of adjustments to make. The same thing applies to any hitter (Jared Mitchell included) at whatever their appropriate level is. The whole point that was being made was that Garcia hasn't been around long enough to tell what he is going to become, not that every single hitter might be good at hitting even though he sucks in the Pioneer League.

[witesoxfan]

See, this is one of those things where I feel you argue JUST for the sake of arguing. Clearly he's talking about something else entirely -- if the guyis good enough to earn a look at the big league level, 31 AB isn't enough to tell you anything, because both the hitter and the pitchers and random luck have lots of adjustments to make. The same thing applies to any hitter (Jared Mitchell included) at whatever their appropriate level is. The whole point that was being made was that Garcia hasn't been around long enough to tell what he is going to become, not that every single hitter might be good at hitting even though he sucks in the Pioneer League.

 

Boomshakalaka. It's the same thing about Avisail in CF. Frankly, if he can be slightly below average, he'd have a lot of value out there, especially if the Sox could bring in big bats who are adequate defensively in the corners.

[Dick Allen]

You're right in some sense. We are talking about players who are competent. You said this yourself about Garcia in CF. Could you tell right away that Ventura was going to make it? How about Chris Snopek? Or Greg Norton?

I never said Garcia was competent in CF. People see he can run and throw, and hope or assume he can play CF because of that. The fact is, if he does play CF for the White Sox, odds are totally stacked against it being a long term thing. First off, while he has nice tools, he isn't great defensively now, and he is more than likely going to get bigger, and there aren't many 250 pound long term CF in the history of the sport.

 

I don't think it will require any more to see that Garcia isn't going to be a Gold Glove CF, just like we knew right away that Viciedo wasn't going to be a Gold Glove LF.

 

If the Sox put Garcia in CF, it will be because of a team need, not because he is a long term solution in CF.

[Balta1701]

I never said Garcia was competent in CF. People see he can run and throw, and hope or assume he can play CF because of that. The fact is, if he does play CF for the White Sox, odds are totally stacked against it being a long term thing. First off, while he has nice tools, he isn't great defensively now, and he is more than likely going to get bigger, and there aren't many 250 pound long term CF in the history of the sport.

 

I don't think it will require any more to see that Garcia isn't going to be a Gold Glove CF, just like we knew right away that Viciedo wasn't going to be a Gold Glove LF.

 

If the Sox put Garcia in CF, it will be because of a team need, not because he is a long term solution in CF.

Why does he need to be judged on whether or not he'll be a gold glove CF?

 

If he's "adequate" or "solid" he could never come close to winning a gold glove but if he's also putting up offensive numbers that remind us of Ordonez we'd be talking about one of the most valuable players in the league if he was in CF.

[Dick Allen]

Why does he need to be judged on whether or not he'll be a gold glove CF?

 

If he's "adequate" or "solid" he could never come close to winning a gold glove but if he's also putting up offensive numbers that remind us of Ordonez we'd be talking about one of the most valuable players in the league if he was in CF.

He would be valuable in CF but not in RF?

 

As I said, the only reason Garcia would play CF is team need, not because that is his best position. I think the Sox would be lucky and happy if he graded out to average in CF. The guy is a RF, just like the original poster posted.

 

 

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Deep and well articulated. Well worth a new thread.

 

I'm more impressed that someone is willing to dismiss him in CF with that sample size, than that the thread police showed up.