Garcia is a RF

[Princess Dye]

As for my 31 AB comment, it is true. Most professional players require 0 major league ABs to determine they aren't going to be very good.

 

You're moving the goalposts here. If this is what you meant, you aren't even talking about what it takes to evaluate players in the first place.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Joe Crede was a below replacement level 3B defensively in nearly the same amount of games play when he first joined the White Sox.

 

SHOULD HAVE MOVED HIM TO 1B.

[witesoxfan]

He would be valuable in CF but not in RF?

 

As I said, the only reason Garcia would play CF is team need, not because that is his best position. I think the Sox would be lucky and happy if he graded out to average in CF. The guy is a RF, just like the original poster posted.

 

If the Sox had Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez circa 2001 along with Avisail Garcia and a relatively deep bench (so they're rotating the DH), who are you going to play in CF? This is the scenario we are talking about.

 

You can look up in this thread and see where I said "I'd rather he play RF."

[Dick Allen]

Joe Crede was a below replacement level 3B defensively in nearly the same amount of games play when he first joined the White Sox.

 

SHOULD HAVE MOVED HIM TO 1B.

I think there is a huge difference between an infielder and outfielder. If Garcia's problem was his throws were really inaccurate or he kicked base hits right at him, that could improve significantly. You cannot improve instinct, at least you can't a whole lot. Crede had great instincts, Garcia takes a lot of curious routes to balls hit his direction. I don't think that is going to get a heck of a lot better.

[Balta1701]

I think there is a huge difference between an infielder and outfielder. If Garcia's problem was his throws were really inaccurate or he kicked base hits right at him, that could improve significantly. You cannot improve instinct, at least you can't a whole lot. Crede had great instincts, Garcia takes a lot of curious routes to balls hit his direction. I don't think that is going to get a heck of a lot better.

Seriously? This would surprise me a lot. Can you actually add numbers to quantify this?

[Dick Allen]

Seriously? This would surprise me a lot. Can you actually add numbers to quantify this?

Let me ask you since you seem to pin everything on coaching, if the problem Garcia is having is taking crazy routes to balls, how do you coach him to make him better? If an infielder is booting balls or throwing wildly to first base, practice and perhaps some sort of mechanical change can correct that. If a guy takes crazy routes to batted balls, you can keep hitting him batted balls, but those routes are instinctive. There are major league infielders that have a tough time with pop ups.

 

If he just started playing the OF, it would be one thing, but he has been out there for years.

 

Unless he has a vision problem, you can hope the weird routes become a little more direct, but chances are, it will always be an issue.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Dick Allen

[Dick Allen]

If the Sox had Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez circa 2001 along with Avisail Garcia and a relatively deep bench (so they're rotating the DH), who are you going to play in CF? This is the scenario we are talking about.

 

You can look up in this thread and see where I said "I'd rather he play RF."

Maggs actually played CF as a youngster about as much as Garcia did. With CLee and Maggs on the corners, obviously Garcia would be in CF but it wouldn't be ideal and it wouldn't be for long.

 

I will say he probably is a better CF than Carl Everett in 2003 and Ken Griffey Jr. in 2008.

 

If the Sox are so stacked with offense in 2014 where Garcia is forced to play CF, I will think that is great, but again, as with the original post, he would be playing out of position.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

I never said Garcia was competent in CF. People see he can run and throw, and hope or assume he can play CF because of that. The fact is, if he does play CF for the White Sox, odds are totally stacked against it being a long term thing. First off, while he has nice tools, he isn't great defensively now, and he is more than likely going to get bigger, and there aren't many 250 pound long term CF in the history of the sport.

 

I don't think it will require any more to see that Garcia isn't going to be a Gold Glove CF, just like we knew right away that Viciedo wasn't going to be a Gold Glove LF.

 

If the Sox put Garcia in CF, it will be because of a team need, not because he is a long term solution in CF.

 

I agree here. He's not even a good RF yet, and by the time he learns to be a good OF, he projects to be relegated to RF anyway. I'd like to see him learn to walk before he learns to run anyway. He should get comfortable in RF.

[southsider2k5]

Seriously? This would surprise me a lot. Can you actually add numbers to quantify this?

 

 

Let me ask you since you seem to pin everything on coaching, if the problem Garcia is having is taking crazy routes to balls, how do you coach him to make him better? If an infielder is booting balls or throwing wildly to first base, practice and perhaps some sort of mechanical change can correct that. If a guy takes crazy routes to batted balls, you can keep hitting him batted balls, but those routes are instinctive. There are major league infielders that have a tough time with pop ups.

 

If he just started playing the OF, it would be one thing, but he has been out there for years.

 

Unless he has a vision problem, you can hope the weird routes become a little more direct, but chances are, it will always be an issue.

 

I'm calling that a "no".

[caulfield12]

He's played 207.2 innings out there. That's a sample size of 23 games. Fangraphs suggests that it takes 3 years worth of data for fielding metrics to become statistically significant, which is roughly the equivalent of 450 games. Currently, we have 5.1% of the suggested amount of relevant information. To compare this to something more tangible, this is like watching 31 at bats of a minor league hitter and declaring "HE CAN'T HIT."

 

(of course, knowing this group, that sounds about right)

 

Balta declared Phegley can't (or wouldn't) hit with 0 at-bats, lol.

 

 

Of course, the argument's going to be that Austin Jackson is so good in CF for the Tigers that Garcia never had a chance to show off all this tools for the Tigers. Whereas Jackson and DeAza don't belong in the same sentence, except on the striking out size of things.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2013 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Balta declared Phegley can't (or wouldn't) hit with 0 at-bats, lol.

 

 

Of course, the argument's going to be that Austin Jackson is so good in CF for the Tigers that Garcia never had a chance to show off all this tools for the Tigers. Whereas Jackson and DeAza don't belong in the same sentence, except on the striking out size of things.

 

As I recall he was predicting the inevitable turning on Phegley if he didn't hit.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I want Garcia in RF no if ands or buts. Stick him there for the next 5 years and forget about him. Its the 1 position on the team that doesn't need to be dealt with. Do whatever you have to do to get a true CF'er, and not some BODY like Granderson. We have the payroll flexibilty to wheel and deal. Ideally starters should stick to one position. Your bench is for flexilbity. You can surely wait on Granderson, and if he signs early with someone for big bucks then you haven't lost much anyway. He's not a true CF'er, he's coming off injuries that sap power . Wait and if you can't get what you should be looking for , take a chance on him for diminished deniro .

[Lillian]

A. Garcia is not a center fielder. With his arm, he could become a very good right fielder. This is the time to let him hone his defensive skills in RF.

 

I wouldn't even mind letting Jordan Danks play a year in CF. He's a very good defensive outfielder, and could be at least a stop gap.

If they can land Abreu, and sign a big left handed bat to hit in the middle of the order, the Sox might not need much offense out of their center fielder.

 

If they replace A. D. A. with that big LH bat in left, and they can get by with Semien leading off, the offense could be respectable.

Could de Aza, Ramirez and Santiago net a middle of the order left handed bat, who could play LF?

 

I know many of you would like to pursue McCann, but I'm not nearly as enthused about that option. I prefer the emphasis on defense behind the plate. Pitch calling is going to continue to be very important for our young pitching staff.

Why not look for offense, at the typical offensive positions? RF, 1B, DH, LF, and 3B are the spots where they can try to create the heart of the order. Garcia, Abreu, Dunn and whoever plays LF and 3B might accomplish that. Any suggestions for LF and third base? I would have said Chase Headley as a free agent, after next season, but he kind of fizzled.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Lillian

[caulfield12]

I want Garcia in RF no if ands or buts. Stick him there for the next 5 years and forget about him. Its the 1 position on the team that doesn't need to be dealt with. Do whatever you have to do to get a true CF'er, and not some BODY like Granderson. We have the payroll flexibilty to wheel and deal. Ideally starters should stick to one position. Your bench is for flexilbity. You can surely wait on Granderson, and if he signs early with someone for big bucks then you haven't lost much anyway. He's not a true CF'er, he's coming off injuries that sap power . Wait and if you can't get what you should be looking for , take a chance on him for diminished deniro.

 

 

You mean his career choices the last 10-15 years.

 

Dinero, haha.

[caulfield12]

As I recall he was predicting the inevitable turning on Phegley if he didn't hit.

 

 

Maybe it was a combination...that he was unlikely to hit very well, and probably would join the list of disappointing prospects...rather than busting out as a stud.

 

Actually, he was pretty darned good his first couple of weeks.

 

It was only later that he fell apart and became the suspect Balta projected.

[caulfield12]

A. Garcia is not a center fielder. With his arm, he could become a very good right fielder. This is the time to let him hone his defensive skills in RF.

 

I wouldn't even mind letting Jordan Danks play a year in CF. He's a very good defensive outfielder, and could be at least a stop gap.

If they can land Abreu, and sign a big left handed bat to hit in the middle of the order, the Sox might not need much offense out of their center fielder.

 

If they replace A. D. A. with that big LH bat in left, and they can get by with Semien leading off, the offense could be respectable.

Could de Aza, Ramirez and Santiago net a middle of the order left handed bat, who could play LF?

 

I know many of you would like to pursue McCann, but I'm not nearly as enthused about that option. I prefer the emphasis on defense behind the plate. Pitch calling is going to continue to be very important for our young pitching staff.

Why not look for offense, at the typical offensive positions? RF, 1B, DH, LF, and 3B are the spots where they can try to create the heart of the order. Garcia, Abreu, Dunn and whoever plays LF and 3B might accomplish that. Any suggestions for LF and third base? I would have said Chase Headley as a free agent, after next season, but he kind of fizzled.

 

 

Logic dictates they find offense from both 1B and LF.

 

Since they're probably NOT going to fill both positions via free agency, and because they're still relatively confident in Viciedo as a hitter...they might buy someone on the cheap (names like Matt Joyce or Brennan Boesch come to mind) and put Dayan at 1B.

 

I'll believe it when I see it...in terms of buying 2-3 expensive free agents on the open market.

 

Not that I like that....but I'd rather buy low on Matt Joyce than do what the Mariners did, with all the veterans they brought in, like Bay, Morse and Ibanez that weren't/aren't going to be part of the future, just placeholders or roster spots.

 

Maybe, maybe Morse...who fits into that Corey Hart category.

 

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

Logic dictates they find offense from both 1B and LF.

 

Since they're probably NOT going to fill both positions via free agency, and because they're still relatively confident in Viciedo as a hitter...they might buy someone on the cheap (names like Matt Joyce or Brennan Boesch come to mind) and put Dayan at 1B.

 

I'll believe it when I see it...in terms of buying 2-3 expensive free agents on the open market.

 

Not that I like that....but I'd rather buy low on Matt Joyce than do what the Mariners did, with all the veterans they brought in, like Bay, Morse and Ibanez that weren't/aren't going to be part of the future, just placeholders or roster spots.

 

Maybe, maybe Morse...who fits into that Corey Hart category.

Just so it's said again...putting Dayan Viciedo at 1b negates what is by far his strongest skill in the field, his throwing arm. And yes, he is certainly coming off a bad season in the field in 2013, but that also followed the pattern of the rest of the team in doing a much worse job out there than the same players did in 2012 (which I continue to attribute to lack of preparation for the season).

[southsider2k5]

Just so it's said again...putting Dayan Viciedo at 1b negates what is by far his strongest skill in the field, his throwing arm. And yes, he is certainly coming off a bad season in the field in 2013, but that also followed the pattern of the rest of the team in doing a much worse job out there than the same players did in 2012 (which I continue to attribute to lack of preparation for the season).

 

The biggest problem is his ability to catch a ball negates the benefits of his arm more than anything.

 

[Lillian]

Just so it's said again...putting Dayan Viciedo at 1b negates what is by far his strongest skill in the field, his throwing arm. And yes, he is certainly coming off a bad season in the field in 2013, but that also followed the pattern of the rest of the team in doing a much worse job out there than the same players did in 2012 (which I continue to attribute to lack of preparation for the season).

 

I'd like to see Viciedo get one full season at third, to see if he could become a decent defender. He has that strong arm, and he seems reasonably sure handed. His physical skill set is really suited better for 3B than LF. That would solve the offensive problem at third, and open LF up for another good hitter. I don't remember, was he that bad when he had a little playing time at the hot corner?

[Kyyle23]

The biggest problem is his ability to catch a ball negates the benefits of his arm more than anything.

 

I disagree, I think his inability to catch a ball actually gives him more opportunities to use his arm. He is throwing people out trying to stretch doubles because he couldnt catch the ball

[southsider2k5]

I disagree, I think his inability to catch a ball actually gives him more opportunities to use his arm. He is throwing people out trying to stretch doubles because he couldnt catch the ball

 

Opportunities, sure. But it comes at the expense of many more outs he should have already made in balls that he misplays or drops.

[caulfield12]

I'd like to see Viciedo get one full season at third, to see if he could become a decent defender. He has that strong arm, and he seems reasonably sure handed. His physical skill set is really suited better for 3B than LF. That would solve the offensive problem at third, and open LF up for another good hitter. I don't remember, was he that bad when he had a little playing time at the hot corner?

 

 

Been there, done that.

 

They felt he was worse than Teahen, even.

[Eminor3rd]

Forcing Viciedo into a difficult defensive position so that he can use his good throwing arm is just so backwards.

[Balta1701]

The biggest problem is his ability to catch a ball negates the benefits of his arm more than anything.

Really, if you look at the stats, this isn't true.

 

They put him in LF in 2012 and he was just a small tick below "average" out there. Both UZR and Defensive Runs Saved agree on this, UZR he was at -3 with 0 being average, DRS he was actually above average in 2012. The problem is he was significantly worse in both metrics in 2013.

 

In 2012, he covered enough ground and was reliable enough of a fielder that when you factor in his arm, he was just fine in 2012. The problem is he suffered from the same 2013 disease as the rest of the team and got worse.

[Dick Allen]

Really, if you look at the stats, this isn't true.

 

They put him in LF in 2012 and he was just a small tick below "average" out there. Both UZR and Defensive Runs Saved agree on this, UZR he was at -3 with 0 being average, DRS he was actually above average in 2012. The problem is he was significantly worse in both metrics in 2013.

 

In 2012, he covered enough ground and was reliable enough of a fielder that when you factor in his arm, he was just fine in 2012. The problem is he suffered from the same 2013 disease as the rest of the team and got worse.

If only they hit him a few more fungos in spring training. He would have been hellish.