A week of groceries in pictures

[illinilaw08]

Living in an urban area with bad public schools, 3 kids under age of 12

 

Mortgage payment (includes taxes and insurance) $2,000

Utilities/Monthly Fixed bills $1,000 (family cell phone plan with 1 GB data plan, HBO Direct TV package, car/life insurance etc.)

Food $1,000 (not cutting coupons using discount stores)

Non-Consumable spending (kids sports, clothing, misc entertainment) $500

Private School (not high school) $900

1 car payment (2 cars in home, new car every 5 years) $350

 

You can't get rich here but it makes for a comfortable life on a day to day basis on $70K net pay. Also limits your annual vacations to one very vanilla trip.

 

You didn't include repayment of student loans or the monthly bill to fill the gas tank (which might be included in the utilities/monthly fixed bills). Student loans are the worst...

[Jake]

...and speaking on this thread, this is actually a very interesting subject.

 

I know quite a few people that view me as rich, and I'm really not, but it would be impossible to convince them of that. In comparison, it may appear that way, but a lot of the reality behind it is overlooked. First, my wife is a stay at home mom, we have two kids, etc. Outside of my mortgage, I have no debt.

 

Now, an interesting thing about Facebook, Twitter, and other such social media is it allows us to do is silently observe people. It doesn't take long for me to realize why I'm viewed as rich because I always seem to have money, while they view themselves as poor. All one needs to do is look at their timeline to see where they spend all their money ... which is eating out seemingly EVERY DAY. The last place I ate out at was Buffalo Wild Wings...29$. Meanwhile, I see picture after picture of these "poor" people at Blackhawks games, Bears games, restaurants, etc...

 

Yes, I'm rich then. Because I don't spend more than I make.

 

The worst part ... when your success is attributed to luck. Yes, my company pays me what they pay me because I'm lucky. That's what it is.

 

There is actually a lot of research demonstrating the relative opposite of what you're describing (but exactly what you're embodying in your observation). When we "silently observe people" via Facebook, we see the best possible version of their life. People think their friends on facebook are happier and richer than they really are. This is because they will post pictures from the Blackhawks game, but not of the ramen for dinner/breakfast or the trailer they live in, etc.

 

If people with little money want to save up to see hockey games, so be it. At some point, many people realize the system is going to f*** them and they just want to squeeze some happiness out of their existence. If I was told it wouldn't be financially prudent to ever go to pro sports games, eat out, etc. I'd spend "frivolously" to make sure it did happen when I could make it happen.

 

 

[Y2HH]

There is actually a lot of research demonstrating the relative opposite of what you're describing (but exactly what you're embodying in your observation). When we "silently observe people" via Facebook, we see the best possible version of their life. People think their friends on facebook are happier and richer than they really are. This is because they will post pictures from the Blackhawks game, but not of the ramen for dinner/breakfast or the trailer they live in, etc.

 

If people with little money want to save up to see hockey games, so be it. At some point, many people realize the system is going to f*** them and they just want to squeeze some happiness out of their existence. If I was told it wouldn't be financially prudent to ever go to pro sports games, eat out, etc. I'd spend "frivolously" to make sure it did happen when I could make it happen.

 

It's different when it's a once in a while thing, or what I see on Facebook, where it's and every other day thing, and then have them wonder why they have no money. People use Facebook to tell everyone where they are...all the time.

[Jenksismyhero]

You didn't include repayment of student loans or the monthly bill to fill the gas tank (which might be included in the utilities/monthly fixed bills). Student loans are the worst...

 

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

 

I regret law school every day (and I regret my wife getting a masters), and will continue to do so for another 12-15 years. At least once those payments go away we'll be able to buy a lake house.

[gatnom]

10k? Even I think that's crazy low if you don't have any help:

 

Monthly amount (assuming 10k is after taxes): ~833 per month.

Rent: 450 (hard to find in Chicago but possible)

Food: 250 (let's say they really scrounge, thats like $8 a day)

 

Right there you are at $700, and thats with the bare minimum. Now add in clothes, utilities (gas and electric), etc and youre creeping on $830 a month real fast. I honestly don't know how you can say we could live easily off of 10k a year.

 

I currently live on a little more than 10k a year, and have for the past 4 or so. I don't have a family, though.

 

 

[Soxbadger]

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

 

I regret law school every day (and I regret my wife getting a masters), and will continue to do so for another 12-15 years. At least once those payments go away we'll be able to buy a lake house.

 

And here is where the wealthy have an advantage again. You make law school/med/etc so price prohibitive that it no longer becomes where the best and smartest go, it becomes where the people who can afford it go.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

And here is where the wealthy have an advantage again. You make law school/med/etc so price prohibitive that it no longer becomes where the best and smartest go, it becomes where the people who can afford it go.

 

I bet approximately 1% of people that go to med school/law school are able to actually afford it. The rest sign away their financial freedom for decades take out loans.

[illinilaw08]

I bet approximately 1% of people that go to med school/law school are able to actually afford it. The rest sign away their financial freedom for decades take out loans.

 

This.

 

Doesn't help things either that the Bankruptcy Code makes it virtually impossible to get rid of student loan debt so it sticks with people for the rest of their lives. I really feel for the kids who graduated from law school after I did when the legal market for new grads contracted horribly.

 

I was lucky... went to school in state with a decent scholarship... and I still expect to have my second mortgage (student loans) weigh me down for the next 15 years. I can't even fathom the debt some doctors I know were saddled with after med school... lawyers have it easy by comparison.

 

 

[iamshack]

I'm in the same position regarding my loans...I feel like every month I pay $500, but nothing ever changes

 

That said, I have gotten the six-figure job as a result of going to law school. I feel like law school was so much better of an educational experience than any of my other educational experiences.

 

That said, there were certain classes I never attended once, and still did as well as those I attended regularly. If they would have allowed it, I feel like I could have gotten the same degree/experience simply by buying the textbooks and reading them on my own. Probably could have gotten it done for $5,000 instead of $80k.

[Soxbadger]

I bet approximately 1% of people that go to med school/law school are able to actually afford it. The rest sign away their financial freedom for decades take out loans.

 

That number seems extremely low. I can only speak from my experience, but of the people I know, its closer to 50% had their parents pay.

 

[gatnom]

I'm in the same position regarding my loans...I feel like every month I pay $500, but nothing ever changes

 

That said, I have gotten the six-figure job as a result of going to law school. I feel like law school was so much better of an educational experience than any of my other educational experiences.

 

That said, there were certain classes I never attended once, and still did as well as those I attended regularly. If they would have allowed it, I feel like I could have gotten the same degree/experience simply by buying the textbooks and reading them on my own. Probably could have gotten it done for $5,000 instead of $80k.

 

The same could be said for any schooling, really. It's a shame that schooling is such a big business.

 

Man, we have a lot of lawyers here at Soxtalk haha.

[IlliniKrush]

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

 

I regret law school every day (and I regret my wife getting a masters), and will continue to do so for another 12-15 years. At least once those payments go away we'll be able to buy a lake house.

My wife says the same thing every day regarding law school. If she hears someone considering law school, she'll do anything she can do basically talk them out of it.

 

As it is, we'll be paying back that loan for the next 15 years. She's also not a "hot shot" attorney making bank, so it's not like the payments are small compared to overall compensation.

 

Meanwhile, she gets very frustrated when she goes on depositions and sees these HS-educated workers that are making like $25+ an hour and they don't have a college degree, let alone loans from a secondary degree to pay back.

 

We've all seen the articles and the math - if you jumped into the work force as an "unskilled" worker immediately after high school, you really aren't that bad off compared to the person that went to 7-8+ years of college and has possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay back. Takes a long time to catch up to the HS worker that didn't take out loans and started earning immediately for an extra X amount of years.

[Balta1701]

We've all seen the articles and the math - if you jumped into the work force as an "unskilled" worker immediately after high school, you really aren't that bad off compared to the person that went to 7-8+ years of college and has possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay back. Takes a long time to catch up to the HS worker that didn't take out loans and started earning immediately for an extra X amount of years.

On average this really isn't true over the long term. It might seem that way when you compare 22 year olds but basically every study finds that the added earnings from a Bachelor's degree compared to a high school degree over a lifetime is at least a million dollars, if not up to 3 million.

 

Yes, that definitely does vary by major, but the data still says that the payoff for education is enormous.

[Jenksismyhero]

My wife says the same thing every day regarding law school. If she hears someone considering law school, she'll do anything she can do basically talk them out of it.

 

As it is, we'll be paying back that loan for the next 15 years. She's also not a "hot shot" attorney making bank, so it's not like the payments are small compared to overall compensation.

 

Meanwhile, she gets very frustrated when she goes on depositions and sees these HS-educated workers that are making like $25+ an hour and they don't have a college degree, let alone loans from a secondary degree to pay back.

 

We've all seen the articles and the math - if you jumped into the work force as an "unskilled" worker immediately after high school, you really aren't that bad off compared to the person that went to 7-8+ years of college and has possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay back. Takes a long time to catch up to the HS worker that didn't take out loans and started earning immediately for an extra X amount of years.

 

Oh man, this is me on a weekly basis. Taking deps of City employees who are dumb as s*** making 60-70k/year (plus their pension, plus the 2-3 bogus WC claims during their 20 years with the city), etc. For 31, I make decent money and my wife makes decent money. But we're aren't living like kings either paying 15-1600/month on loans.

[iamshack]

My wife says the same thing every day regarding law school. If she hears someone considering law school, she'll do anything she can do basically talk them out of it.

 

As it is, we'll be paying back that loan for the next 15 years. She's also not a "hot shot" attorney making bank, so it's not like the payments are small compared to overall compensation.

 

Meanwhile, she gets very frustrated when she goes on depositions and sees these HS-educated workers that are making like $25+ an hour and they don't have a college degree, let alone loans from a secondary degree to pay back.

 

We've all seen the articles and the math - if you jumped into the work force as an "unskilled" worker immediately after high school, you really aren't that bad off compared to the person that went to 7-8+ years of college and has possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay back. Takes a long time to catch up to the HS worker that didn't take out loans and started earning immediately for an extra X amount of years.

I've got some friends who are iron workers that started immediately after hs. They've got very nice retirement plans in place and have been making pretty solid money for the last 10+ years or so. I've eclipsed them in salary by a decent margin, but still have the loans and still have the retirement plan where I'm way behind them. I think if everything remained on the trajectory it is now, I'd end up in a much better place, but that is certainly not guaranteed by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Higher Ed is almost certainly a gamble you make on yourself.

Edited October 22, 2013 by iamshack

[Jenksismyhero]

On average this really isn't true over the long term. It might seem that way when you compare 22 year olds but basically every study finds that the added earnings from a Bachelor's degree compared to a high school degree over a lifetime is at least a million dollars, if not up to 3 million.

 

Yes, that definitely does vary by major, but the data still says that the payoff for education is enormous.

 

Yeah, I still would tell people to get that piece of paper. But the graduate degree? Eh, probably not. And a private school for college? f*** no.

[IlliniKrush]

On average this really isn't true over the long term. It might seem that way when you compare 22 year olds but basically every study finds that the added earnings from a Bachelor's degree compared to a high school degree over a lifetime is at least a million dollars, if not up to 3 million.

 

Yes, that definitely does vary by major, but the data still says that the payoff for education is enormous.

Oh, I know over the long haul it's better. But it takes a long time to get there, and some of those people get promoted and earn decent salaries, like the below example, and meanwhile you don't always make 200K as a lawyer or whatever. It's just interesting to consider. The degree is still not a guarantee for much, much more money down the road, but my main point was that it takes a long time to get to "even" and you don't have the stress of a ton of student loans, and had money earlier in your life.

 

Oh man, this is me on a weekly basis. Taking deps of City employees who are dumb as s*** making 60-70k/year (plus their pension, plus the 2-3 bogus WC claims during their 20 years with the city), etc. For 31, I make decent money and my wife makes decent money. But we're aren't living like kings either paying 15-1600/month on loans.

Yup, this is exactly it.

[Soxbadger]

So the outcome will be less people who need loans go to medical/law and more people who have money do, regardless of how smart or talented they are.

 

Im not sure what you guys are arguing here. When your parents are offering you 3 more years of vacation, you dont really have to worry about your friends at the iron plant or what they are making.

[IlliniKrush]

So the outcome will be less people who need loans go to medical/law and more people who have money do, regardless of how smart or talented they are.

 

Im not sure what you guys are arguing here. When your parents are offering you 3 more years of vacation, you dont really have to worry about your friends at the iron plant or what they are making.

I don't know that we're really arguing anything, just having a discussion.

 

Badger I get it if your parents are paying for it - but in our case, we're paying for 100% of it. So she wasn't lucky enough to be 3-year vacation person.

[iamshack]

So the outcome will be less people who need loans go to medical/law and more people who have money do, regardless of how smart or talented they are.

 

Im not sure what you guys are arguing here. When your parents are offering you 3 more years of vacation, you dont really have to worry about your friends at the iron plant or what they are making.

I think the argument is that the education route isn't as much of a slam dunk in an uncertain and stagnant economy that it might have been before. At least not advanced degrees.

[Soxbadger]

I think the argument is that the education route isn't as much of a slam dunk in an uncertain and stagnant economy that it might have been before. At least not advanced degrees.

 

Right, which is why people with money can afford to invest in it, where people without money cant.

[Jenksismyhero]

So the outcome will be less people who need loans go to medical/law and more people who have money do, regardless of how smart or talented they are.

 

Im not sure what you guys are arguing here. When your parents are offering you 3 more years of vacation, you dont really have to worry about your friends at the iron plant or what they are making.

 

I don't think the price going up has changed anyone's decision not to go to law school the last decade. Until you get the degree you're just signing a meaningless piece of paper obligating you to decades of repayment. At 18 or 22 you're more concerned about the hot blonde that just smiled at you at the financial aid office.

[iamshack]

Right, which is why people with money can afford to invest in it, where people without money cant.

Well I think it's pretty clear that that isn't a good thing, except for perhaps the folks who can afford to "invest" (have exclusive access) in it.

[Jenksismyhero]

Right, which is why people with money can afford to invest in it, where people without money cant.

 

Here are the % of law students who walk away from law school with debt:

 

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandrevi...d-debt-rankings

 

Not seeing a lot of low percents there.

[Soxbadger]

I don't think the price going up has changed anyone's decision not to go to law school the last decade. Until you get the degree you're just signing a meaningless piece of paper obligating you to decades of repayment. At 18 or 22 you're more concerned about the hot blonde that just smiled at you at the financial aid office.

 

I disagree.

 

 

Well I think it's pretty clear that that isn't a good thing, except for perhaps the folks who can afford to "invest" (have exclusive access) in it.

 

Right, its just a good old boys network. You keep the barrier of entry high.