The Wealthy as Job Creators?

[Texsox]

Rich people aren't going to stop buying cars, boats, jewelry, and vacations because they cost a few bucks more.

 

The luxury tax on boats in 1990 crushed the industry.

 

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1993-08-1...ilding-industry

[Soxbadger]

The luxury tax on boats in 1990 crushed the industry.

 

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1993-08-1...ilding-industry

 

Of course, any time you start messing with price there is going to be a natural impact on the supply/demand curve.

 

Im not sure why people are so concerned about graduated income tax. Adam Smith pretty much outlined that people who make more have to pay more. And who cares if its proportional or not, rich people get a disproportional amount of the govt services.

 

Rich people in this country really could pay more. Ultimately they are the ones with the most to lose if the govt goes sideways. Which is why its tremendously shortsighted what they are doing.

 

Whats funny is that many who are against graduated tax are the first to say "life isnt fair", well that works both ways, although Im pretty sure that if you are paying 90% of your taxes on anything you make over $10mil, you probably arent willing to trade with someone making $40k just because they are only paying 20% taxes.

 

Sometimes we just need to be honest about reality.

[Iwritecode]

This is from a couple of years ago but it sure seems like something that should be fixed as well.

 

Link

[cabiness42]

Of course, any time you start messing with price there is going to be a natural impact on the supply/demand curve.

 

Im not sure why people are so concerned about graduated income tax. Adam Smith pretty much outlined that people who make more have to pay more. And who cares if its proportional or not, rich people get a disproportional amount of the govt services.

 

Rich people in this country really could pay more. Ultimately they are the ones with the most to lose if the govt goes sideways. Which is why its tremendously shortsighted what they are doing.

 

Whats funny is that many who are against graduated tax are the first to say "life isnt fair", well that works both ways, although Im pretty sure that if you are paying 90% of your taxes on anything you make over $10mil, you probably arent willing to trade with someone making $40k just because they are only paying 20% taxes.

 

Sometimes we just need to be honest about reality.

 

I'm not concerned about the graduated income tax. I'm fine with it. I was just thinking of a way to get revenue that the rich would find less objectionable.

 

[pettie4sox]

I agree with a lot of this, but the issue isn't simply federal tax...it's a combination of taxes and other fees that nickel and dime regular people. Effectively, after deductions, I pay about 7-8% federal income tax, however, if you add up all the other taxes on top of that:

 

Such as state/county/city tax, amusement tax, soda tax, city sticker tax/fees, license plate sticker tax/fees, water bills/water tax, sales tax, liquor tax, property tax, phone tax, tax on tax, etc...when all is said and done, it ends up being astronomically higher than just 7-8%. Everywhere I go, and everything I do, I'm getting taxed. Hell, I can't even drive most places without paying 5$ in tolls...they even have tolls that charge you to EXIT the f***ing highway, which feels like a f***ing entrapment scam.

 

Essentially, the way the system is set up now, we double/triple/quadruple dip (and beyond) money that's already been taxed again and again, to the point that because of how they wield the tax code from the federal all the way down to the local level, it feels like a form of punishment.

 

I'm fine with a graduated income tax, but with such an overhaul, taxes all the way down to the local level would have to be overhauled with it. It's insane how much we are taxed and most people don't even realize how much they're getting nickel and dimed, yet even local governments are beyond broke.

 

This. SO HARD!

 

[Soxbadger]

I'm not concerned about the graduated income tax. I'm fine with it. I was just thinking of a way to get revenue that the rich would find less objectionable.

 

There isnt one.

 

Most people dont get rich by 1) voluntarily giving their money away and/or 2) not fighting for every nickel and penny.

 

Some rich people are willing to. They acknowledge that their parents paid significantly higher taxes and they still were rich and had a great life.

 

[StrangeSox]

Rich people in this country really could pay more. Ultimately they are the ones with the most to lose if the govt goes sideways. Which is why its tremendously shortsighted what they are doing.

 

This applies to gutting the social safety net as well.

[Jake]

There are always unintended consequences. A couple requirements for a successful tax plan. Above all else, it must raise money to run the government. The problem with sin taxes, (expensive cars, boats, cigarettes, liquor) is if people stop buying those items, it eliminates jobs and doesn't raise money to run the government.

 

I agree that we have too many hidden taxes. Gasoline taxes are incredible, every tourist area tacks on surcharges for hotel rooms and rental cars (hey, who doesn't like out of towners paying extra taxes in your town?)

 

The graduated income tax is about as fair of a system as can be divised. A lesson that SS2k5 taught me years ago. the amounts and where it jumps up is the debate in my eyes.

 

Sin taxes just hammer poor people, usually. Someone addicted to cigarettes and is just scraping by isn't going to add to their stress by not smoking. They're just going to have give even more of their income to the habit.

 

The same with taxing Cadillacs, etc. Middle class people want that s*** and they reach to get certain status items.

 

You tax the money when it is earned and/or take all that is left when they die

Edited October 23, 2013 by Jake

[Balta1701]

Sin taxes just hammer poor people, usually. Someone addicted to cigarettes and is just scraping by isn't going to add to their stress by not smoking. They're just going to have give even more of their income to the habit.

I'm pretty sure there is convincing data out there showing that as the cigarette taxes have gone up, more and more people have stopped using them.

[StrangeSox]

A lot of people, including well-off people, completely misunderstand our graduated marginal tax system. They think that if you're paying 20% at $249,999 of income and you get a raise that puts you in the 30% $250,000 bracket, you're going to be taxed at 30% on your entire income.

[EvilMonkey]

First of all I reject it is a punishment to live in this country and pay taxes. There are very few places on the planet that do not collect taxes, so I reject your implication that we should not tax at all. So if you agree with me that it is necessary to tax people, then the debate becomes how much to tax and in what manner. If you think we shouldn't "punish" the wealthy by collecting any taxes, then you can stop reading here, but I really doubt that is the case.

 

A few reasons why I believe we should revert back to the tax rates of twenty and thirty years ago.

 

A graduated income tax is the fairest. Money that is used for food, clothing, and shelter should not be taxed as heavy as money used for a third or fourth home, European vacations, and manicures. So higher income gets taxed more than lower income.

 

If we looked at the country that could be built and maintained based on a tax rate that just the poor and middle class could afford, we would not have the infrastructure, the military, and all those roads, forest preserves, etc. If we want a first world country, we need to collect more income than a third world country.

 

The wealth, in most cases, came from the purchases that the middle class and poor made.

If you are telling someone that because they made X amount of money you are going to take more than half of it, for the same services that everyone else is paying less for, you are punishing them for being successful. While I might want all of Mark Cuban's money, he made something, had an idea or sold something to get the money, it is his money. Not yours. Should he pay double every time he orders a cheeseburger because he is rich? Should you pay more because you make over the poverty line? It is punishment and theft if you want to take more than half.

[StrangeSox]

I'm pretty sure there is convincing data out there showing that as the cigarette taxes have gone up, more and more people have stopped using them.

 

Sin taxes went up as restrictions on where you can smoke, smoking advertising, and the overall social acceptance of smoking changed as well, though.

[Y2HH]

Sin taxes just hammer poor people, usually. Someone addicted to cigarettes and is just scraping by isn't going to add to their stress by not smoking. They're just going to have give even more of their income to the habit.

 

The same with taxing Cadillacs, etc. Middle class people want that s*** and they reach to get certain status items.

 

You tax the money when it is earned and/or take all that is left when they die

 

Absolutely NOT.

 

I think Milton Freidman answered why a 100% inheritance/death tax is a really bad f***ing idea quite well...

 

 

Edited October 23, 2013 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

If you are telling someone that because they made X amount of money you are going to take more than half of it, for the same services that everyone else is paying less for, you are punishing them for being successful. While I might want all of Mark Cuban's money, he made something, had an idea or sold something to get the money, it is his money. Not yours. Should he pay double every time he orders a cheeseburger because he is rich? Should you pay more because you make over the poverty line? It is punishment and theft if you want to take more than half.

Mark Cuban could make all of that money in large part because of the US's legal patent system and enforcement of it, no?

[EvilMonkey]

Mark Cuban could make all of that money in large part because of the US's legal patent system and enforcement of it, no?

it doesn't matter how he makes it, as long as it is legal. He made it, not you or the Feds. he pays taxes as part of an implied social contract that we all pay our share of running the government. But when his share dwarfs everyone elses, it because punishment of his success.

[Soxbadger]

Sin taxes just hammer poor people, usually. Someone addicted to cigarettes and is just scraping by isn't going to add to their stress by not smoking. They're just going to have give even more of their income to the habit.

 

The same with taxing Cadillacs, etc. Middle class people want that s*** and they reach to get certain status items.

 

You tax the money when it is earned and/or take all that is left when they die

 

Stop smoking, stop buying cadillacs. Its simple. Back in college Id smoke randomly, now I cant even imagine buying a pack of cigarettes. $10 for that junk? If Im going to kill myself its going to be with fun drugs.

 

And that is really where sin tax needs to go if you want it to be successful. Allow rich people to pay to break the law. Id pay for that. Id actually want to make more money if my money could be spent doing what I want to do.

 

Estate tax really shouldnt be that important if we have a high enough income tax. You paid when you made it, you get to keep it. And to be fair, if you are really rich you have a trust or some other instrument to avoid this anyways. Its really not hard.

 

 

If you are telling someone that because they made X amount of money you are going to take more than half of it, for the same services that everyone else is paying less for, you are punishing them for being successful. While I might want all of Mark Cuban's money, he made something, had an idea or sold something to get the money, it is his money. Not yours. Should he pay double every time he orders a cheeseburger because he is rich? Should you pay more because you make over the poverty line? It is punishment and theft if you want to take more than half.

 

Sometimes I dont know what world you are living in.

 

Its not theft to charge 90% tax rate on any amount of money made over $1bil. It may not be "fair" but guess what, life isnt fair.

 

People like Mark Cuban dont need you protecting them, they already pay people a lot of money to convince people like you that raising their taxes is really bad.

 

It isnt.

[bmags]

it doesn't matter how he makes it, as long as it is legal. He made it, not you or the Feds. he pays taxes as part of an implied social contract that we all pay our share of running the government. But when his share dwarfs everyone elses, it because punishment of his success.

 

His point is the average person is not utilizing the services of the US Government to enforce IP Patent Law that allows Mr. Cuban to make his money.

[EvilMonkey]

Stop smoking, stop buying cadillacs. Its simple. Back in college Id smoke randomly, now I cant even imagine buying a pack of cigarettes. $10 for that junk? If Im going to kill myself its going to be with fun drugs.

 

And that is really where sin tax needs to go if you want it to be successful. Allow rich people to pay to break the law. Id pay for that. Id actually want to make more money if my money could be spent doing what I want to do.

 

Estate tax really shouldnt be that important if we have a high enough income tax. You paid when you made it, you get to keep it. And to be fair, if you are really rich you have a trust or some other instrument to avoid this anyways. Its really not hard.

 

 

 

 

Sometimes I dont know what world you are living in.

 

Its not theft to charge 90% tax rate on any amount of money made over $1bil. It may not be "fair" but guess what, life isnt fair.

 

People like Mark Cuban dont need you protecting them, they already pay people a lot of money to convince people like you that raising their taxes is really bad.

 

It isnt.

It absolutely is theft, born of of greed, envy or whatever you want to call it. So if you go out to eat with a group of friends, and you make the most of all of them, do you pay the most of all of them? And I don't mean picking up the tab once in a while, every time you go out, do you pay more in a group setting, or do you force whoever has the largest paycheck to pay more?

[Soxbadger]

His point is the average person is not utilizing the services of the US Government to enforce IP Patent Law that allows Mr. Cuban to make his money.

 

Normal people dont get as much services as rich people.

 

And really really poor people, dont need things like "police protecting their money in a bank" or "federal insurance on deposits up to X amount".

 

But remember, 99% of the people who fight the most vehemently for rich people, arent actually rich themselves.

 

I theorize its the idea that they themselves will one day become rich, so they are trying to prevent the laws from impacting their future selfs.

 

Id say that you should just worry about yourself today (thats what rich people do) and you cross the "Im making 7 figures and worried about the top tax rate" when you get there.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

it doesn't matter how he makes it, as long as it is legal. He made it, not you or the Feds. he pays taxes as part of an implied social contract that we all pay our share of running the government. But when his share dwarfs everyone elses, it because punishment of his success.

 

His share dwarfs ours because his wealth dwarfs ours, and his wealth wouldn't exist without the legitimacy of a government-backed IP system. He is in no way "punished" by paying higher taxes on his wealth that dwarfs the mean net worth of a majority of Americans by about five orders of magnitude. The wealth gap in this country has grown substantially over the past several decades; of course those at the top are going to be paying a substantial portion of total taxes when they hold a substantial portion of total wealth/income.

[StrangeSox]

It absolutely is theft, born of of greed, envy or whatever you want to call it.

 

That has to be it!

[StrangeSox]

Normal people dont get as much services as rich people.

 

And really really poor people, dont need things like "police protecting their money in a bank" or "federal insurance on deposits up to X amount".

 

But remember, 99% of the people who fight the most vehemently for rich people, arent actually rich themselves.

 

I theorize its the idea that they themselves will one day become rich, so they are trying to prevent the laws from impacting their future selfs.

 

Id say that you should just worry about yourself today (thats what rich people do) and you cross the "Im making 7 figures and worried about the top tax rate" when you get there.

 

 

paraphrase of Steinbeck:

 

Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

 

[Texsox]

I'm pretty sure there is convincing data out there showing that as the cigarette taxes have gone up, more and more people have stopped using them.

 

Aren't there a lot of factors at work here, not just taxes or have you seen research that isolates cost from anti-smoking campaigns, restricting access to smoking areas, etc.?

 

If you are telling someone that because they made X amount of money you are going to take more than half of it, for the same services that everyone else is paying less for, you are punishing them for being successful. While I might want all of Mark Cuban's money, he made something, had an idea or sold something to get the money, it is his money. Not yours. Should he pay double every time he orders a cheeseburger because he is rich? Should you pay more because you make over the poverty line? It is punishment and theft if you want to take more than half.

 

We wouldn't even have those services if we only taxed what a middle class person could afford. What you are suggesting is we tax everyone the exact same amount. The shipping clerk at Amazon and the CEO would pay the exact same total amount. Not even a percentage, because why should the CEO making $10,000,000 pay $1,000,000 and the shipping clerk only pay $1,000 for the exact same services?

 

That's just will not work.

[Balta1701]

Aren't there a lot of factors at work here, not just taxes or have you seen research that isolates cost from anti-smoking campaigns, restricting access to smoking areas, etc.?

I genuinely don't have time to look but yes, I believe I've seen research to that effect.

[Soxbadger]

It absolutely is theft, born of of greed, envy or whatever you want to call it. So if you go out to eat with a group of friends, and you make the most of all of them, do you pay the most of all of them? And I don't mean picking up the tab once in a while, every time you go out, do you pay more in a group setting, or do you force whoever has the largest paycheck to pay more?

 

What am I envious of? Other peoples money? I dont care, I grew up in a society where everyone had all the money that they could reasonably spend. You quickly realize that money isnt what makes people happy. That no amount of million dollar homes, $100k cars, will make them happy.

 

And your example is my point:

 

If I go out with my friends, order 10x as much food, 10x as much drink, I pay 10x as much. I dont say "Well we all came together so we should split it".

 

And when Im in a group where I have a lot more money, I pay for it. I pay for their tickets, I pay for the cab, I pay for whatever. Because they are my friends and my money is worthless if I dont have people to share it with.

 

And my other friend who makes considerably more than me, he almost always pays the entire bill, because he can, because he knows that its not fair/right to have people go to fancy dinners/shows/etc that they cant afford.

 

Just like our country. Some rich people understand that its just right to pay more. That when you have everything in the world an extra hundred thousand a year doesnt hurt you. But that much money is more than a years wage to someone else.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Soxbadger