Bourjos and Trumbo available for pitching

[Eminor3rd]

Remember when I started this post, I never imagined trading one of our starters - one for one - for Bourjos. I proposed trading a starter for Bourjos AND one of the Angel catchers - Conger or Iannetta. For a young, proven MLB #3/4 starter under team control, a return of Bourjos AND a major league experienced catcher is warrented. I also wanted the Angels' to throw in a minor leaguer to boot, so I am well aware of the premium needed to trade young, controllable pitching.

 

That said, let's look at a few key facts:

 

1. De Aza, who is on the wrong side of 30, just produced what is likely his best offensive season and what did it get the White Sox? 99 losses. To keep him, the WSox will need to anti up between $3 and $4.5 million through arbitration. For all the offensive production, the countless baserunning errors and other related brain dead plays exposed De Aza as who he is - a replacement level starter who hurts teams in the long run more than he helps. He should be long gone off this roster in 2014.

 

2. No way the White Sox will be without Alexi or Viciedo in 2014. Did you see the Abreu press conference yeaterday? No way the WSox take away the internal Cuban suport group for their new prize Abreu. WAY too much invested financially and otherwise for the WSox to do anything to compromise getting the very best of Abreu. Jose will have a hard enough time transitioning over - the WSox are going to give him as much support as possible which means Alexi and Viciedo stay through 2014.

 

3. Borjous has had tough luck with freak injuries but he is a gem. His defense helps cover for Viciedo in left and he is more than capable of matching the best of De Aza's offensive numbers from 2013 if starting every day. I have personally seen him play and practice in Arizona during spring training and the kid can HIT. He was consistantly out distancing home runs hit the same day by Hamilton and Poujos and his speed and pure baseball instincts are miles ahead of De Aza, Danks or any other pretender on the White Sox current 40 man roster. He is for real and the Angels are going to regret giving up on him. Let their loss be our gain!

 

All trades have risk, but it is clear that Hahn will not be shy about taking more risks and more action to improve the team. I agree that they lilely have just one bite of the trade a starter apple. I also believe that getting in return a potential gold glove center fielder just entering his prime and on the cheap ($1.1 mil) and for 3 years of team control PLUS acquiring a catcher like Conger that you can rotate with the winner of the Flowers/Phegley bake off to be the back up is filling two big holes. Now only 3rd base is the glaring weakness but a poi poi combo platter of Semien, Keppenger, Gallespie may be the best the WSox can do for 2014 unless something else falls into their lap.

 

1. Borjous

2. Semien

3. Garcia

4. Abreu

5. Dunn

6. Viciedo

7. Alexi

8. Conger

9. Beckham

 

World Series/Playoff bound - not a chance.

 

Better than the misery of 2013 - absolutely and now with several players entering prime years and upside potential.

 

Yeah, De Aza is not a replacement level starter, he's coming off a 2.7 WAR season, which was the second highest total on our team (among position players). No idea why people are so anxious to hang the brunt of those 99 losses on De Aza. Almost every other player on our team was worse.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Yeah, De Aza is not a replacement level starter, he's coming off a 2.7 WAR season, which was the second highest total on our team (among position players). No idea why people are so anxious to hang the brunt of those 99 losses on De Aza. Almost every other player on our team was worse.

His 2.7 year WAR was 2012 ,it was 2.2 in 2013 according to fangraphs.

[Eminor3rd]

His 2.7 year WAR was 2012 ,it was 2.2 in 2013 according to fangraphs.

 

Sorry, going off of memory there. Still, the point remains.

[Chicago White Sox]

I agree with the first statement, but not the second. A run saved is a run scored, and Bourjos is arguably the best in the bigs in CF. And we were atrocious defensively. He's a 3-4 win player in a full season -- which would make him better than all of our position players last year.

Not all runs are created equal, so I disagree with your "a run saved is a run scored". Balance is a critical part of winning games and our offense was arguably the worst in baseball last year. Therefore, medium-sized investments in the offense can lead to large returns, resulting in more wins than simply the sum of the WAR we'd be adding. Now, I'm not arguing that improving the defense is pointless, I just think you can get a lot more bang for your buck (or talent) by adding to the offense, especially if we can improve the team's OBP. I don't believe Bourjos helps us there despite his career high .333 OBP last year.

 

Also, you're hyping him up as a "3-4 win player in a full season" and yet after 3 major league seasons he's only had one 3+ WAR season which happens to be 3 years ago. Durability matters and if he can't stay healthy he'll never be a 3/4 WAR player and you'll be relying on replacement-level talents for two thirds of the year. BTW, what happened to his defensive numbers this past year? It appears they slipped quite a bit. Given that his value is so heavily tied to his defense is this a concern to you?

[witesoxfan]

Yeah, De Aza is not a replacement level starter, he's coming off a 2.7 WAR season, which was the second highest total on our team (among position players). No idea why people are so anxious to hang the brunt of those 99 losses on De Aza. Almost every other player on our team was worse.

 

Selective memory. De Aza strikes out/drops ball/misreads flyball/gets caught stealing and he's the worst player on the team.

[southsider2k5]

Places to stick him for 2014:

 

1) In a trade

 

2) On the nontender list

 

I despise the guy as much as anyone, but you don't nontender him.

[Eminor3rd]

Not all runs are created equal, so I disagree with your "a run saved is a run scored". Balance is a critical part of winning games and our offense was arguably the worst in baseball last year. Therefore, medium-sized investments in the offense can lead to large returns, resulting in more wins than simply the sum of the WAR we'd be adding. Now, I'm not arguing that improving the defense is pointless, I just think you can get a lot more bang for your buck (or talent) by adding to the offense, especially if we can improve the team's OBP. I don't believe Bourjos helps us there despite his career high .333 OBP last year.

 

Also, you're hyping him up as a "3-4 win player in a full season" and yet after 3 major league seasons he's only had one 3+ WAR season which happens to be 3 years ago. Durability matters and if he can't stay healthy he'll never be a 3/4 WAR player and you'll be relying on replacement-level talents for two thirds of the year. BTW, what happened to his defensive numbers this past year? It appears they slipped quite a bit. Given that his value is so heavily tied to his defense is this a concern to you?

 

I never said htat all runs are created equal, but when your team is horrendous at both offense and defense, getting them on either side helps the same.

 

He was a part time player the past couple seasons because of roster, not injury

 

EDIT: The reason you look at WAR at this point is because you cannot possibly predict event sequencing going into the season. A run saved is absolutely equal to a run scored -- it's the context that makes it true that not all runs are created equal. That's an entirely different thing.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Eminor3rd

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

OK, now you're taking your obsession too far because literally anything Parra can do, Bourjos can do better. There's no point in watching the videos.

 

LOL, such as.....???

 

Take more walks? Oh wait, Parra does that better.

Strike out less?? Oh wait, Parra does that better.

Hit for average? Oh wait, that's Parra too.

Get on base? Nope, still Parra.

How about play defense. Naaaah, Parra again.

How about hit homeruns? Nope.

How about hit doubles? Oh wait, no.

Maybe he has a better throwing arm? Nope.

 

How about hit triples? HEY THERE IT IS!!

Steal bases? Yes! That's two!

 

So yeah, Bourjos can do "LITERALLY" everything Parra can do, and better......except he can't. Oh wait, he does hit triples at a higher rate, and he's a better baserunner. Oh, and Bourjos is right handed, while Parra is a lefty, and we all know how this team is dying for right-handed hitters, so I guess ya got me there.

[Eminor3rd]

LOL, such as.....???

 

Take more walks? Oh wait, Parra does that better.

Strike out less?? Oh wait, Parra does that better.

Hit for average? Oh wait, that's Parra too.

Get on base? Nope, still Parra.

How about play defense. Naaaah, Parra again.

How about hit homeruns? Nope.

How about hit doubles? Oh wait, no.

Maybe he has a better throwing arm? Nope.

 

How about hit triples? HEY THERE IT IS!!

Steal bases? Yes! That's two!

 

So yeah, Bourjos can do "LITERALLY" everything Parra can do, and better......except he can't. Oh wait, he does hit triples at a higher rate, and he's a better baserunner. Oh, and Bourjos is right handed, while Parra is a lefty, and we all know how this team is dying for right-handed hitters, so I guess ya got me there.

 

I think you missed some sarcasm.

 

[Dick Allen]

I never said htat all runs are created equal, but when your team is horrendous at both offense and defense, getting them on either side helps the same.

 

He was a part time player the past couple seasons because of roster, not injury

 

EDIT: The reason you look at WAR at this point is because you cannot possibly predict event sequencing going into the season. A run saved is absolutely equal to a run scored -- it's the context that makes it true that not all runs are created equal. That's an entirely different thing.

But even the most locked in saberheads admit defensive WAR at the very least, is a work in progress. So that measurement can be off.

I just wonder why the Angels don't seem to like this guy very much if he is destined to be so good. They paid big money to keep him off the field.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I think you missed some sarcasm.

 

I don't think so. Wite has been trumpeting in the past few pages how much he loves and wants Bourjos. I think he honestly thinks Bourjos is a better player than Parra in every part of the game.

[Eminor3rd]

But even the most locked in saberheads admit defensive WAR at the very least, is a work in progress. So that measurement can be off.

I just wonder why the Angels don't seem to like this guy very much if he is destined to be so good. They paid big money to keep him off the field.

 

Right, but the knock on defensive metrics is that they take large samples in order to become predictive. Guys with long track records of substantially positive numbers aren't considered to be off. It also helps when the scouts echo the same types of praise.

 

I wonder why they wanted to keep him off the field too --but I wondered that about Napoli as well.

[witesoxfan]

LOL, such as.....???

 

Take more walks? Oh wait, Parra does that better.

Strike out less?? Oh wait, Parra does that better.

Hit for average? Oh wait, that's Parra too.

Get on base? Nope, still Parra.

How about play defense. Naaaah, Parra again.

How about hit homeruns? Nope.

How about hit doubles? Oh wait, no.

Maybe he has a better throwing arm? Nope.

 

How about hit triples? HEY THERE IT IS!!

Steal bases? Yes! That's two!

 

So yeah, Bourjos can do "LITERALLY" everything Parra can do, and better......except he can't. Oh wait, he does hit triples at a higher rate, and he's a better baserunner. Oh, and Bourjos is right handed, while Parra is a lefty, and we all know how this team is dying for right-handed hitters, so I guess ya got me there.

 

Settle down. I was talking defensively, but misremembered and overestimated Bourjos's arm strength. Parra is better offensively, I've never questioned that, but he's also not available and, if he were available, would be way more expensive. Maybe you missed my first post on that in this thread.

 

Bourjos is easily the better defender. Parra is above average in CF while Bourjos, as I've said about 15 times in this thread, has the ability to be the best defensive CF in the majors. About the one guy I can think of who may have better range is Carlos Gomez, and that's debatable.

[Jake]

Viciedo is 5 years younger than ADA, has much more upside, more team control, and is an absolute rocket scientist compared to ADA. While I'm not going to non-tender De Aza, if I have to give someone the short end of the stick it will be him. We want a long term winner? Give Viciedo as many chances to be a franchise cornerstone as possible. De Aza is so close to his expiration date that the biggest benefit he offers is depth or perhaps the return we get in trade.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Viciedo is 5 years younger than ADA, has much more upside, more team control, and is an absolute rocket scientist compared to ADA. While I'm not going to non-tender De Aza, if I have to give someone the short end of the stick it will be him. We want a long term winner? Give Viciedo as many chances to be a franchise cornerstone as possible. De Aza is so close to his expiration date that the biggest benefit he offers is depth or perhaps the return we get in trade.

 

Yes, yes, and yes.