Blue Jays reportedly interested in Gordon Beckham

[greg775]

Take out Santiago and that's a fair deal. Two busts for two busts. Not sure why you want to gift wrap the young improving pitcher.

 

I figured Moustakas is not officially a bust yet. I figured Royals might make the deal if we include Santiago who is expendable.

[southsider2k5]

Your the one that is doing the spinning.

 

One of the saddest things I read when looking for Crawford stuff was a thread about Keith Laws top 25 a few years ago. The poster was pissed because Mike Trout was ranked #3. The poster said it upset him because Trout was heavily linked to the White Sox, and many mock drafts had the Sox selecting Trout.

 

You still haven't proven me wrong. No one wanted Crawford at a free agent price.

[beck72]

I for one would want to wait on trading Gordon unless the Sox can get good value. I'm not sold on Semien or Sanchez being ready to start for the Sox in 2014. Maybe midseason. Johnson is a year away.

 

Gordon's glove alone would be hard to replace. Esp. if the sox aren't getting someone who can help the sox next year. Anyone trading for him now would be buying low. Why not wait to see if he builds up his value. I'm not saying Gordon will be guy he was drafted to be. Likely not. But with the holes the sox have, they can wait one more year or 1/2 year and then trade him.

 

Most people around here want young reclamation projects, guys with talent who have some prospect of turning it around and being major league regulars. We have one in Gordon. His bat is what needs fixing. His glove can be part of the solution moving forward. The Sox certainly haven't had the hitting coaches in the minors or bigs who have had any success working with hitters.

[LittleHurt05]

I figured Moustakas is not officially a bust yet. I figured Royals might make the deal if we include Santiago who is expendable.

 

Expendable? He is a talented young arm who is set in your rotation or a valuable trading chip for a good bat. Not just a throw in for a reclamation project.

[greg775]

I for one would want to wait on trading Gordon unless the Sox can get good value. I'm not sold on Semien or Sanchez being ready to start for the Sox in 2014. Maybe midseason. Johnson is a year away.

 

Gordon's glove alone would be hard to replace. Esp. if the sox aren't getting someone who can help the sox next year. Anyone trading for him now would be buying low. Why not wait to see if he builds up his value. I'm not saying Gordon will be guy he was drafted to be. Likely not. But with the holes the sox have, they can wait one more year or 1/2 year and then trade him.

 

Most people around here want young reclamation projects, guys with talent who have some prospect of turning it around and being major league regulars. We have one in Gordon. His bat is what needs fixing. His glove can be part of the solution moving forward. The Sox certainly haven't had the hitting coaches in the minors or bigs who have had any success working with hitters.

 

A lot of us are just sick of Beckham and wish he'd go away, kind of like how I felt about Rios. I guess I could stomach one more year of Beckham since he has a good glove, but IMO we HAVE to fix 2B and 3B.

Those who want to keep Beckham ... think if the season was still going on ... doesn't the thought of having to watch him bat four times truly make you not even bother with the game? He's that frustrating a hitter to me.

[Wanne]

I for one would want to wait on trading Gordon unless the Sox can get good value. I'm not sold on Semien or Sanchez being ready to start for the Sox in 2014. Maybe midseason. Johnson is a year away.

 

Gordon's glove alone would be hard to replace. Esp. if the sox aren't getting someone who can help the sox next year. Anyone trading for him now would be buying low. Why not wait to see if he builds up his value. I'm not saying Gordon will be guy he was drafted to be. Likely not. But with the holes the sox have, they can wait one more year or 1/2 year and then trade him.

 

Most people around here want young reclamation projects, guys with talent who have some prospect of turning it around and being major league regulars. We have one in Gordon. His bat is what needs fixing. His glove can be part of the solution moving forward. The Sox certainly haven't had the hitting coaches in the minors or bigs who have had any success working with hitters.

 

I tend to agree with this. I get the feeling the light turned on for Gordo this year before his injury...seems he was just raking the ball to all fields before he went on the DL. If you can get good value...absolutely...but to trade him just because you're sick of him makes zero sense.

[ron883]

You still haven't proven me wrong. No one wanted Crawford at a free agent price.

And if anybody did, please direct me to their post so I can scold them. Who is there right mind signs a 29 year old who has a game revolving around speed to 7 year contract paying 20 million a year? I really doubt anybody wanted that.

[greg775]

I tend to agree with this. I get the feeling the light turned on for Gordo this year before his injury...seems he was just raking the ball to all fields before he went on the DL. If you can get good value...absolutely...but to trade him just because you're sick of him makes zero sense.

 

Sox fans are patient regarding Gordon. I get the feeling he's gonna be a 12-year guy for the White Sox and never have one good offensive season. It takes a long time for teams to give up on No. 1 draft picks, ala the Royals and Hochevar.

Edited November 2, 2013 by greg775

[Vance Law]

The guy has over 2,000 AB's in the majors. At what point are you going to give up? His career OPS in the those 2000+ AB's is .697. That's clearly a good enough sample size to determine that he isn't a quality starting player in the majors. I'm not even saying Semien is the answer (really hope he is but who knows), but I can say with confidence that Beckham isn't the guy. Time to move on, its time to move on from a lot of guys on this team.

 

League average OPS for an American League second baseman over the last 2 years is .695.

 

If you have time to complain about a league average second baseman earning way less than a league average salary it must mean you've got a bunch of all-stars at the other positions.

 

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

League average OPS for an American League second baseman over the last 2 years is .695.

 

If you have time to complain about a league average second baseman earning way less than a league average salary it must mean you've got a bunch of all-stars at the other positions.

Why do I think that if you'd compared Beckhams ops over the last 2 years to league average, instead of sneaking in his rookie year, you'd tell a different story?

[Vance Law]

Why do I think that if you'd compared Beckhams ops over the last 2 years to league average, instead of sneaking in his rookie year, you'd tell a different story?

 

I didn't sneak anything anywhere. The only number I used was the average OPS for AL second basemen the past 2 years: .682 in 2012, .707 in 2013. Beckham's .694 in an injury-plagued 2013 combined with his defensive value adds up to about league average in my book. He was having a very good season well into August despite playing through those injuries.

 

But my point stands: anyone bothering to complain about Gordon Beckham should only be doing so after they've already spent a bunch of time complaining about our 3rd basemen, our catchers, Adam Dunn, Viciedo's 1.1 total WAR through 1200 career PAs, and Alexei Ramirez making $9.5 million next year despite worse offense than Beckham each of the past 2 years (and the most errors in the AL this year)

[Balta1701]

Did you actually just complain about the number of WAR Viciedo has put up and then immediately turn around and complain about Ramirez's offense in a vacuum without considering the position and defense?

[Jake]

Gordon quite clearly had unbelievably lucky run of soft hits and bloops when he came off the DL. He didn't produce well all year. I have very little confidence in him going forward. His defense even fell off, and I don't know what that could have to do with his glove hand

[greg775]

Gordon quite clearly had unbelievably lucky run of soft hits and bloops when he came off the DL. He didn't produce well all year. I have very little confidence in him going forward. His defense even fell off, and I don't know what that could have to do with his glove hand

 

Yeah, he has produced terribly but as a No. 1 pick he has a lot of time left before he's deemed a total bust. I'd suspect he'll remain a Sox unless Hahn despises his offensive game which is always a possibility.The key here is what does Hahn think of these guys. He's been around and has seen them up close for a long time.

Do any insiders know what he thinks of Lexi, Beckham, DeAza, Viciedo, Phegs and Flowers? It'd be nice to know what the GM thinks of these guys' futures.

Edited November 3, 2013 by greg775

[Vance Law]

Did you actually just complain about the number of WAR Viciedo has put up and then immediately turn around and complain about Ramirez's offense in a vacuum without considering the position and defense?

 

Nope. I didn't complain about anything, but I did offer suggestions for higher-priority complaints than Beckham. And with regard to Ramirez, rather than in a vacuum, I specifically put the issue in context of his $9.5 million paycheck. Does the combination of his good [if increasingly error-prone] defense at short and his lacking offense warrant $9.5 million?

 

[Jake]

Yeah, he has produced terribly but as a No. 1 pick he has a lot of time left before he's deemed a total bust. I'd suspect he'll remain a Sox unless Hahn despises his offensive game which is always a possibility.The key here is what does Hahn think of these guys. He's been around and has seen them up close for a long time.

Do any insiders know what he thinks of Lexi, Beckham, DeAza, Viciedo, Phegs and Flowers? It'd be nice to know what the GM thinks of these guys' futures.

 

I'm guessing Hahn doesn't expect much from Beckham. He's a safe bet not to be sub-replacement level player, but there doesn't seem to be much reason to think he will suddenly bust out after all this time. I bet Hahn would love to get some value for him on the trade market - if he can get us Brett Lawrie, I don't think there will be a second of his hesitation. If there isn't a market for him, and I doubt there is, Becks gives us flexibility with Semien. We'll feel much freer to leave Semien in AAA for a while and, even if he Semien breaks camp with the big league club, Semien can bat for Becks against RHP at times while Conor plays at 3B. Then, against LHP, you can have Gordon at 2B and Semien at 3B.

 

As for those other guys, I think the FO is cautiously optimistic about Dayan. I think they see a little sunk cost with him, but know that he's a relatively small step forward from being a really valuable player. I don't think they like Phegs and Flowers at all. I think they see Alexei for what he is: a guy making exactly what he deserves, playing awesome defense, holding his own at the plate, and adding a base stealing element to his game. With that said, I bet they're uncertain about his loss of power and are frustrated about the mental errors last year. I'm sure they'd like to see Semien become a SS, which would free them up to get some real value for Alexei.

[TheFutureIsNear]

I didn't sneak anything anywhere. The only number I used was the average OPS for AL second basemen the past 2 years: .682 in 2012, .707 in 2013. Beckham's .694 in an injury-plagued 2013 combined with his defensive value adds up to about league average in my book. He was having a very good season well into August despite playing through those injuries.

 

But my point stands: anyone bothering to complain about Gordon Beckham should only be doing so after they've already spent a bunch of time complaining about our 3rd basemen, our catchers, Adam Dunn, Viciedo's 1.1 total WAR through 1200 career PAs, and Alexei Ramirez making $9.5 million next year despite worse offense than Beckham each of the past 2 years (and the most errors in the AL this year)

 

Injury plagued season also makes it a much smaller sample size. That .694 OPS is heavily skewed by a good 30-40 game stretch, but other than that he was his usual .660-.670 OPS self. Beckham is probably best suited to be a good utility infielder. And yes, I am also complaining about the rest of the guys you listed. Our offense stinks as a whole and needs to be completely retooled.

[Vance Law]

Gordon quite clearly had unbelievably lucky run of soft hits and bloops when he came off the DL.

 

He had a career high 23.2% line drive rate and a career low 7.6% infield fly rate.

[Marty34]

Nope. I didn't complain about anything, but I did offer suggestions for higher-priority complaints than Beckham. And with regard to Ramirez, rather than in a vacuum, I specifically put the issue in context of his $9.5 million paycheck. Does the combination of his good [if increasingly error-prone] defense at short and his lacking offense warrant $9.5 million?

 

You're right the Beckham talk provides cover for Ramirez who is the bigger problem. He's owed $20M, you're not going to win anything with him and he has less trade value than Beckham.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Marty34

[iamshack]

You're right the Beckham talk provides cover for Ramirez who is the bigger problem. He's owed $20M, you're not going to win anything with him and he has less trade value than Beckham.

I think you're wrong.

[greg775]

I'm guessing Hahn doesn't expect much from Beckham. He's a safe bet not to be sub-replacement level player, but there doesn't seem to be much reason to think he will suddenly bust out after all this time. I bet Hahn would love to get some value for him on the trade market - if he can get us Brett Lawrie, I don't think there will be a second of his hesitation. If there isn't a market for him, and I doubt there is, Becks gives us flexibility with Semien. We'll feel much freer to leave Semien in AAA for a while and, even if he Semien breaks camp with the big league club, Semien can bat for Becks against RHP at times while Conor plays at 3B. Then, against LHP, you can have Gordon at 2B and Semien at 3B.

 

As for those other guys, I think the FO is cautiously optimistic about Dayan. I think they see a little sunk cost with him, but know that he's a relatively small step forward from being a really valuable player. I don't think they like Phegs and Flowers at all. I think they see Alexei for what he is: a guy making exactly what he deserves, playing awesome defense, holding his own at the plate, and adding a base stealing element to his game. With that said, I bet they're uncertain about his loss of power and are frustrated about the mental errors last year. I'm sure they'd like to see Semien become a SS, which would free them up to get some real value for Alexei.

 

That all makes sense to me. Nice post.

[Rowand44]

You're right the Beckham talk provides cover for Ramirez who is the bigger problem. He's owed $20M, you're not going to win anything with him and he has less trade value than Beckham.

20 mill for an above average ss, awful problem to have.

[Marty34]

20 mill for an above average ss, awful problem to have.

 

Teams like the Cardinals didn't think much of Ramirez at the deadline.

[iamshack]

Teams like the Cardinals didn't think much of Ramirez at the deadline.

That's not an informed opinion.

[Marty34]

That's not an informed opinion.

 

Sure it is.