iamshack Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 07:23 AM) Sure it is. Oh? So what were the various proposals passed back and forth? Edited November 3, 2013 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (Vance Law @ Nov 2, 2013 -> 10:16 PM) He had a career high 23.2% line drive rate and a career low 7.6% infield fly rate. I'm all for trading him if a good offer is there but I don't want this post to get lost in the mix. Real good rebuttal to the conversation at hand. I still have hope that we can get the guy we say the first 3 months of the season last year. I suspect that if a team trades for him, they have similar hopes as I do. I think the stance change did him some good. If Hawk is right in that his power will return next season I think they could do worse. You can also do better though. A couple guys I wonder about are Aaron Hill and Daniel Murphy, Daniel Murphy in particular. I have no clue how good he is defensively, but as a LHB who has a pretty good stick I think he'd be a good addition. The Mets look like they wanna play Wilmer Flores at 2B and the DBacks might wanna move Prado to 2B to make room for Davidson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 09:27 AM) Oh? So what were the various proposals passed back and forth? At the end of the day, the Cardinals stuck with Peter Kozma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 12:36 PM) At the end of the day, the Cardinals stuck with Peter Kozma. Because they weren't gonna give up Carlos Martinez in return. Hahn didn't have to trade Ramirez, so you shoot for the moon and if they don't meet your price then you move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 08:36 AM) At the end of the day, the Cardinals stuck with Peter Kozma. Did you see Michael Wacha and Carlos Martinez in the postseason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 11:05 AM) Did you see Michael Wacha and Carlos Martinez in the postseason? Did you see Kozma? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (scs787 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 10:43 AM) Because they weren't gonna give up Carlos Martinez in return. Hahn didn't have to trade Ramirez, so you shoot for the moon and if they don't meet your price then you move on. I recall reading on this board posters wanting more than Martinez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 09:09 AM) Did you see Kozma? That has nothing to do with the statement you made which I took issue with. All we know is that the rumored asking price was one or more players that showed some dynamic stuff in the Postseason. To say that that results in the conclusion that the Cardinals didn't think much of Alexei is simply wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 11:18 AM) That has nothing to do with the statement you made which I took issue with. All we know is that the rumored asking price was one or more players that showed some dynamic stuff in the Postseason. To say that that results in the conclusion that the Cardinals didn't think much of Alexei is simply wrong. Carlos Martinez wasn't thought very highly of (on this board) when the rumor appeared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 12:28 PM) Carlos Martinez wasn't thought very highly of (on this board) when the rumor appeared. I doubt that, I remember some questioned his size, or maybe they simply wanted Hahn to get hitting instead of pitching. Ramirez has value, but not enough to get you the 26th prospect in all of baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 09:28 AM) Carlos Martinez wasn't thought very highly of (on this board) when the rumor appeared. What does our opinion of him matter? We weren't the ones negotiating the trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 (edited) They obviously weren't willing to part with Wacha, Martinez, Kelly or Shelby Miller....and/or Wong. Or Taveras, etc. Or Adams. Or Lynn. You can argue after the fact with how the Cardinals' offense performed in the post-season that they could have used every little advantage they could get, but it still might not have been enough. Let's face it, if they get much anything out of Jay, Freese, Kozma/Descalso and Craig, they're sitting pretty. Alexei really could have made a difference, but I have a hard time imagining Mozeliak feels he lost the World Series because he didn't make that trade, or the Pirates, for that matter, feeling like they would have advanced past StL. Edited November 3, 2013 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 11:45 AM) What does our opinion of him matter? We weren't the ones negotiating the trade. There are a lot of folks on here who follow prospects very closely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 11:28 AM) Carlos Martinez wasn't thought very highly of (on this board) when the rumor appeared. What are you talking about? Everyone flipped out when the rumor said Hahn turned down Martinez for Ramirez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Matters not, per Heyman the Cardinals never offered Martinez for Ramirez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 10:20 AM) Matters not, per Heyman the Cardinals never offered Martinez for Ramirez. Hah! Your argument was that the Cardinals didn't think highly of Alexei. Nothing you have said (or actually know) can back that up. The fact that they were rumored to be interested in trading for him would belie your statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 12:24 PM) Hah! Your argument was that the Cardinals didn't think highly of Alexei. Nothing you have said (or actually know) can back that up. The fact that they were rumored to be interested in trading for him would belie your statement. You brought up Wacha and Martinez to I guess show Ramirez's value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Replacing Kozma with Alexei very well may have gotten them a World Series win. Acting like the Cardinals were smart when they were continually getting f***ed by horrible shortstops doesn't seem like the smart thing to do here. Alexei is better than Pete Kozma at everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (Vance Law @ Nov 2, 2013 -> 09:01 PM) Nope. I didn't complain about anything, but I did offer suggestions for higher-priority complaints than Beckham. And with regard to Ramirez, rather than in a vacuum, I specifically put the issue in context of his $9.5 million paycheck. Does the combination of his good [if increasingly error-prone] defense at short and his lacking offense warrant $9.5 million? Since you brought up WAR...that statistic says "absolutely and he'd be worth even more than that". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 10:30 AM) You brought up Wacha and Martinez to I guess show Ramirez's value. No, I brought them up to show the supposed asking price by Hahn was quite high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Just a heads up guys, while Ramirez' power has dropped, he still has a ton of XBH. He also steals a lot of bases. He won't look good to the stat nerds because he doesn't walk much, but he's still a productive hitter and very valuable. Beckham's defense is incredibly overrated. Once we get a real second baseman, people will notice. His range is abysmal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 01:39 PM) Just a heads up guys, while Ramirez' power has dropped, he still has a ton of XBH. He also steals a lot of bases. He won't look good to the stat nerds because he doesn't walk much, but he's still a productive hitter and very valuable. Beckham's defense is incredibly overrated. Once we get a real second baseman, people will notice. His range is abysmal. Beckham's range was actually really good in 2011, but it's gotten worse each year. Alexei also was interesting this year in that some of his power might well have been lost by being in the 2-hole and trying to make more contact...he did suddenly start homering as soon as he was dropped in the order again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (iamshack @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 12:34 PM) No, I brought them up to show the supposed asking price by Hahn was quite high. And the Cardinals disagreed with that price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 10:58 AM) And the Cardinals disagreed with that price. Yes they did; that certainly doesn't mean they didn't think highly of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 The Cardinals stubbornness probably cost them a title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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