Dick Allen Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 12:58 PM) And the Cardinals disagreed with that price. It could also be the Cardinals were not able to pick up the money. Ramirez is worth his contract to the White Sox. My God, you are the guy saying pick up BJ Upton, eat half his contract, and see what kind of prospect you can get. You also want Uggla. Then say Ramirez's contract is a probelm? Your trolling has gotten out of hand. OTOH, I do find it funny a guy who a lot of posters seem to think has to go, they think is a great piece for other teams to acquire. Edited November 3, 2013 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 01:21 PM) It could also be the Cardinals were not able to pick up the money. Ramirez is worth his contract to the White Sox. My God, you are the guy saying pick up BJ Upton, eat half his contract, and see what kind of prospect you can get. You also want Uggla. Then say Ramirez's contract is a probelm? Your trolling has gotten out of hand. OTOH, I do find it funny a guy who a lot of posters seem to think has to go, they think is a great piece for other teams to acquire. Able or willing? Big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 The issue for the Cardinals was the young talent more than Ramirez's contract. You could probably say 80% talent surrendered, 20% financial concerns. It's not like they were going to go out and spend Ellsbury or even Choo money for CF or RF. It's not their operating procedure. They believe they're fine with Tavares and Allen Craig for CF and RF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Marty34 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 01:29 PM) Able or willing? Big difference. These teams are always able for the most part, but some teams leave very little wiggle room to take on money during the season. Ownership wants its money.I am quite sure you can get just as good, and much better prospects for Ramirez than you could get for BJ Upton even if you ate $30 million of Upton's contract. Edited November 3, 2013 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 01:20 PM) The Cardinals stubbornness probably cost them a title. Doubtful Alexei makes that big of a difference and Carlos Martinez played a big part in getting them as far as they did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 07:20 PM) The Cardinals stubbornness probably cost them a title. Is Alexei a difference maker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 02:54 PM) Is Alexei a difference maker? In a 7 game series he absolutely "could" be. For a team with a weakness at shortstop he absolutely should be. Whether that translates into that series going 7 games...who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 If the Cardinals hadn't won in both 2006 and 2011, they undoubtedly would have been a bit more willing or open to trade for Ramirez. StL is typically thinking more long-term than short-term, the antithesis of the KW philosophy. It was just way too much pressure on Wacha to expect him to be perfect in the post-season. Kelly's probably not even going to be in their rotation in 2014. From the time that Ortiz rescued the Red Sox with that 6-5 win over the Tigers, it seemed like it was their trophy to take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Law Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 01:33 PM) Since you brought up WAR...that statistic says "absolutely and he'd be worth even more than that". Depending on how precisely you think the advanced defensive metrics gauge value, but yes he would likely get that money on the free agent market. My point would be more is it worth it to the Sox to be paying that much for a guy unlikely to be the shortstop on the next Sox playoff team. I suppose that depends on whether or not Hahn is constructing a team to legitimately hope to contend in 2014 or whether he's putting in place people he hopes to be the long term solutions (Avisail, Abreu, Semien) but who probably are not there yet. He seems to be suggesting there won't be any big free agent signings, so people's hope of an upgrade to McCann seem less likely. We'll see what happens. But if the team is more like 2 years away, I say move Alexei's $$ because a) it's kind of a lot and b) we probably wouldn't have to eat any of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (Vance Law @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 06:19 PM) Depending on how precisely you think the advanced defensive metrics gauge value, but yes he would likely get that money on the free agent market. My point would be more is it worth it to the Sox to be paying that much for a guy unlikely to be the shortstop on the next Sox playoff team. I suppose that depends on whether or not Hahn is constructing a team to legitimately hope to contend in 2014 or whether he's putting in place people he hopes to be the long term solutions (Avisail, Abreu, Semien) but who probably are not there yet. He seems to be suggesting there won't be any big free agent signings, so people's hope of an upgrade to McCann seem less likely. We'll see what happens. But if the team is more like 2 years away, I say move Alexei's $$ because a) it's kind of a lot and b) we probably wouldn't have to eat any of it. I have no issue with moving Alexei...but there's no reason to be in a hurry to move him. He's signed for several years, his performance isn't deteriorating and if there's a coach who can focus him there's reason to believe it can improve again, his baserunning numbers got a lot better last year for example, and frankly, $9 million dollars on the FA market isn't going to make a huge difference for this team right now. The Sox can sit and wait until someone pays a really premium price for an affordable SS signed long-term. If they hold him for now and wait for a really good return...what's the downside? Semien and Johnson get more time to work on their games in AAA and AA, which is where they belong anyway...and they have to hit their way into the big leagues. This isn't a bad thing. If somehow both of them hit their way into the bigs shortly, then maybe we have 2b and 3b actually filled as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 I feel like our perception of all this is based on the premises of: 1. White Sox desperately trying to dump Alexei and 2. Cardinals only kinda sorta listening With no clear replacement for Alexei and his fair and long-term deal, it seems unlikely that we were actually desperate to dump him. He could easily be a part of a rebuilt White Sox team. It makes even more sense for us to exercise caution while we don't know what we have in Semien (who had hardly broken out at the time of these negotiations). Beyond that, his trade value was unlikely to go down if we waited. The contract gets shorter, we move into the offseason when teams have more money and more teams might bid, etc. He was a guy we had no reason to dump for nothing and I have a feeling we were asking for a lot. The Cards, on the other hand, may have very well been rather desperate for him but were unable or unwilling to pay a very high price for him. Who knows, perhaps after their frustrating finish they'll be even more emboldened to up the ante for a guy like Alexei. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 QUOTE (Jake @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 06:31 PM) I feel like our perception of all this is based on the premises of: 1. White Sox desperately trying to dump Alexei and 2. Cardinals only kinda sorta listening With no clear replacement for Alexei and his fair and long-term deal, it seems unlikely that we were actually desperate to dump him. He could easily be a part of a rebuilt White Sox team. It makes even more sense for us to exercise caution while we don't know what we have in Semien (who had hardly broken out at the time of these negotiations). Beyond that, his trade value was unlikely to go down if we waited. The contract gets shorter, we move into the offseason when teams have more money and more teams might bid, etc. He was a guy we had no reason to dump for nothing and I have a feeling we were asking for a lot. The Cards, on the other hand, may have very well been rather desperate for him but were unable or unwilling to pay a very high price for him. Who knows, perhaps after their frustrating finish they'll be even more emboldened to up the ante for a guy like Alexei. That's 1 person's perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 01:00 AM) 20 mill for an above average ss, awful problem to have. Personally I love the total value of the contract being quoted to make it seem so much worse. AH SCARY BIG NUMBER!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 07:24 PM) Personally I love the total value of the contract being quoted to make it seem so much worse. AH SCARY BIG NUMBER!!!! If he accepts the qualifying offer, the Red Sox will have paid Stephen Drew $23.5 million between 2013 and 2014. In bWAR (cause I'm at the page) Alexei put up 2.6 last year, Drew put up 3.1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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