Viciedo and Ramirez not "safe" because of Abreu

[southsider2k5]

http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox/ramire...onnection-abreu

[caulfield12]

http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox/ramire...onnection-abreu

 

 

I love how Luhnow gets brought up constantly as the voice of scouting wisdom on Abreu, because they were supposedly 2nd in the bidding.

 

That's not exactly a glowing endorsement at this point in time. Now if Mozeliak said something like that....

 

 

 

And it doesn't mean they're actively shopping Viciedo or Ramirez, it just means they're not untouchable and Hahn is willing to listen.

I would be pretty shocked if Viciedo or Ramirez is traded before next July.

[witesoxfan]

And it doesn't mean they're actively shopping Viciedo or Ramirez, it just means they're not untouchable and Hahn is willing to listen.

I would be pretty shocked if Viciedo or Ramirez is traded before next July.

 

I would not. I don't think they will be traded, but I would not be shocked in the least if they were. I think the organizatoin is beginning to sour on Viciedo a bit, though I think they give him one more season. Ramirez is an expensive, older SS and the Sox have a couple different guys who can play SS at the MLB level right now. I honestly would really like to see Leury get a shot at starting.

[caulfield12]

I would not. I don't think they will be traded, but I would not be shocked in the least if they were. I think the organizatoin is beginning to sour on Viciedo a bit, though I think they give him one more season. Ramirez is an expensive, older SS and the Sox have a couple different guys who can play SS at the MLB level right now. I honestly would really like to see Leury get a shot at starting.

 

 

That would give us 2 positions below 600 OPS wise, then Beckham.

 

Frankly, they're going to need a better option back than Garcia who can play everyday, and better than Carlos Sanchez or Semien (fielding-wise at SS)...the tricky part is no team other than the Red Sox has/had that kind of major league ready talent to part with.

 

If they took all the savings from his (Ramirez's) contract and invested it fruitfully in the Dominican, Venezuela, whatever. Just develop a plan and stick to it, that's all we're asking for.

Edited November 14, 2013 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

That would give us 2 positions below 600 OPS wise, then Beckham.

 

Frankly, they're going to need a better option back than Garcia who can play everyday, and better than Carlos Sanchez or Semien (fielding-wise at SS)...the tricky part is no team other than the Red Sox has/had that kind of major league ready talent to part with.

 

If they took all the savings from his (Ramirez's) contract and invested it fruitfully in the Dominican, Venezuela, whatever. Just develop a plan and stick to it, that's all we're asking for.

 

Doesn't work that way anymore.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I love how Luhnow gets brought up constantly as the voice of scouting wisdom on Abreu, because they were supposedly 2nd in the bidding.

 

That's not exactly a glowing endorsement at this point in time. Now if Mozeliak said something like that....

 

 

 

And it doesn't mean they're actively shopping Viciedo or Ramirez, it just means they're not untouchable and Hahn is willing to listen.

I would be pretty shocked if Viciedo or Ramirez is traded before next July.

 

 

Why doesn't Lunhow have a ringing endorsement? Have you checked out Houston's system lately? They are absolutely loaded. I am actually very excited that Houston, Texas, and Boston were all in on Abreu as well.

[Dick Allen]

I love how Luhnow gets brought up constantly as the voice of scouting wisdom on Abreu, because they were supposedly 2nd in the bidding.

 

That's not exactly a glowing endorsement at this point in time. Now if Mozeliak said something like that....

 

 

 

And it doesn't mean they're actively shopping Viciedo or Ramirez, it just means they're not untouchable and Hahn is willing to listen.

I would be pretty shocked if Viciedo or Ramirez is traded before next July.

Luhnow was with the Cardinals for 8 years. It's better than a Buddy Bell endorsement.

[caulfield12]

Doesn't work that way anymore.

 

 

Fine, then Brazil, India, Australia....China/South Korea/Japan/Taiwan. The young players have to develop a connection and loyalty to the major league brand, and that starts when they're 12-13-14 year olds.

 

Find a way to build a competitive advantage. The only arguable ones we have now are Cubans (although that didn't guarantee us Cespedes, Puig or Soler), developing/targeting pitching and, up until 2013, the overall health of the team/training/strength and conditioning.

 

We had Jerry Krause running around Central and South America doing what exactly?

 

We had a Venezuelan "hero" as our manager and leveraged that into what?....only the Freddie Garcia trade. We never had a Venezuelan camp or academy like nearly half of the major league teams. We had one of the worst Dominican ones, and then the Wilder thing made it THE worst.

Edited November 14, 2013 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Luhnow was with the Cardinals for 8 years. It's better than a Buddy Bell endorsement.

 

 

I would rather have an Ozzie Guillen endorsement than Bell.

 

Heck, even Harold Baines, if he chose to actually speak.

 

 

If Nick Swisher said something nice about Abreu, it would almost have more meaning.

[witesoxfan]

That would give us 2 positions below 600 OPS wise, then Beckham.

 

Frankly, they're going to need a better option back than Garcia who can play everyday, and better than Carlos Sanchez or Semien (fielding-wise at SS)...the tricky part is no team other than the Red Sox has/had that kind of major league ready talent to part with.

 

If they took all the savings from his (Ramirez's) contract and invested it fruitfully in the Dominican, Venezuela, whatever. Just develop a plan and stick to it, that's all we're asking for.

 

I don't think Garcia is that poor of a hitter, but besides that, what better time to start evaluating and developing a SS at the MLB level then now?

 

I've said it elsewhere, but I fully believe Garcia will be a 2 WAR SS and he could get as high as 4 WAR. I don't view him as an untalented throw a way piece. He's been lauded for his defense and the speed is absolutely for real. He can work on his hit tool a bit and develop a bit of patience at the plate, we could be looking at like .270/.330/.370 sort of player with 40+ steal potential. Again, not incredible, but that would be very nice out of the shortstop position.

Edited November 14, 2013 by witesoxfan

[macsandz]

I would not. I don't think they will be traded, but I would not be shocked in the least if they were. I think the organizatoin is beginning to sour on Viciedo a bit, though I think they give him one more season. Ramirez is an expensive, older SS and the Sox have a couple different guys who can play SS at the MLB level right now. I honestly would really like to see Leury get a shot at starting.

 

Agreed. Viciedo and Beckham have to benefit from the Steverson hire and they think they will. Time will tell.

[southsider2k5]

Agreed. Viciedo and Beckham have to benefit from the Steverson hire and they think they will. Time will tell.

 

I think part of the reason that Manto was let go was in the hope that a new perspective would help quite a few guys who had rough years last year.

[macsandz]

I think part of the reason that Manto was let go was in the hope that a new perspective would help quite a few guys who had rough years last year.

Absolutely. Viciedo is an enigma that baffles and frustrates everybody.

[Dick Allen]

Absolutely. Viciedo is an enigma that baffles and frustrates everybody.

I like Viciedo and think he still can be really good, but I don't know why he would baffle anyone. It's pretty clear what his problem is. Frustrating for sure. Baffling? No way. If the White Sox are baffled, they need new management.

[caulfield12]

I don't think Garcia is that poor of a hitter, but besides that, what better time to start evaluating and developing a SS at the MLB level then now?

 

I've said it elsewhere, but I fully believe Garcia will be a 2 WAR SS and he could get as high as 4 WAR. I don't view him as an untalented throw a way piece. He's been lauded for his defense and the speed is absolutely for real. He can work on his hit tool a bit and develop a bit of patience at the plate, we could be looking at like .270/.330/.370 sort of player with 40+ steal potential. Again, not incredible, but that would be very nice out of the shortstop position.

 

 

Once again, we're stuck in this constant negativity loop around the idea of the White Sox developing/improving hitters.

 

If someone can work miracles with Viciedo and Garcia on pitch selection/plate discipline, maybe the same is possible with Garcia.

 

But I'll believe it when I see it.

[witesoxfan]

Once again, we're stuck in this constant negativity loop around the idea of the White Sox developing/improving hitters.

 

If someone can work miracles with Viciedo and Garcia on pitch selection/plate discipline, maybe the same is possible with Garcia.

 

But I'll believe it when I see it.

 

I'm not saying he would hit; I'm saying you have to see if he can hit and if he has the defensive tools to cut it at shortstop every day. Really, do you want to do that sort of thing when the team is actually competitive, only to see it fail and cost you big time down the road (as Brian Anderson did in 2006)?

[harfman77]

I'm not saying he would hit; I'm saying you have to see if he can hit and if he has the defensive tools to cut it at shortstop every day. Really, do you want to do that sort of thing when the team is actually competitive, only to see it fail and cost you big time down the road (as Brian Anderson did in 2006)?

 

The question is if he fails, then what? There are many options in the pipe to help out. It is a risk, but if you are planning on a big re-build it is probably one you take. I think Ramirez is probably the player most likely to be moved as I think there will several teams looking to upgrade the position this offseason and he probably has a much or more value as any veteran on the club.

[witesoxfan]

The question is if he fails, then what? There are many options in the pipe to help out. It is a risk, but if you are planning on a big re-build it is probably one you take. I think Ramirez is probably the player most likely to be moved as I think there will several teams looking to upgrade the position this offseason and he probably has a much or more value as any veteran on the club.

 

If he fails, then you try Semien. That's his most comfortable position, though I don't think he has the range that Garcia has. If he doesn't work there, you keep trying to find new options. Maybe someone emerges in the system. When the team looks like it's going to be this bad, you may as well keep running guys out there till you find someone who works.

[caulfield12]

I'm not saying he would hit; I'm saying you have to see if he can hit and if he has the defensive tools to cut it at shortstop every day. Really, do you want to do that sort of thing when the team is actually competitive, only to see it fail and cost you big time down the road (as Brian Anderson did in 2006)?

 

 

So then your system has to be good enough that you can bring up 2-3 players every season (like the Cardinals or Red Sox) and you'll feel confident enough that they can hold their own at some point (fairly quickly, at that).

 

Right now, after the results we've recently seen with Flowers, with Phegley, with Beckham and even Viciedo....that confidence level is at an all-time low, to the point where many are assuming that none of our prospects will ever hit the ground running or that it will require 2-3 years of "on the job training" for them to make it.

 

I'd still love to see the 2006 season play out with Chris Young in CF and no Javy Vazquez, with McCarthy as the 5th starter.

 

To this day, I never understood why we had a compelling need to have six major league capable starters, at the cost of one position in the starting line-up suffering.

Edited November 14, 2013 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

So then your system has to be good enough that you can bring up 2-3 players every season (like the Cardinals or Red Sox) and you'll feel confident enough that they can hold their own at some point (fairly quickly, at that).

 

Right now, after the results we've recently seen with Flowers, with Phegley, with Beckham and even Viciedo....that confidence level is at an all-time low, to the point where many are assuming that none of our prospects will ever hit the ground running or that it will require 2-3 years of "on the job training" for them to make it.

 

I'd still love to see the 2006 season play out with Chris Young in CF and no Javy Vazquez, with McCarthy as the 5th starter.

 

To this day, I never understood why we had a compelling need to have six major league capable starters, at the cost of one position in the starting line-up suffering.

 

It is easy in hindsight. The Sox didn't believe in McCarthy. That's why they didn't want him in the rotation, and why they traded him so quickly.

[Marty34]

I like Viciedo and think he still can be really good, but I don't know why he would baffle anyone. It's pretty clear what his problem is. Frustrating for sure. Baffling? No way. If the White Sox are baffled, they need new management.

 

Viciedo's "problem" is that he has never lived up to the hype the Sox organization put on him when he was signed. He's not to blame.

[witesoxfan]

Viciedo's "problem" is that he has never lived up to the hype the Sox organization put on him when he was signed. He's not to blame.

 

There have been times where Viciedo looked incredibly good at the plate, but most of the time he has looked like a hacking, impatient free swinger. I wish he would use the approach he used off the DL last year at all times. It may have been him being tenative to swing, but I have never seen him look so good at the plate.

[Vance Law]

I'd still love to see the 2006 season play out with Chris Young in CF and no Javy Vazquez, with McCarthy as the 5th starter.

 

To this day, I never understood why we had a compelling need to have six major league capable starters, at the cost of one position in the starting line-up suffering.

 

Thome + Anderson was better than Rowand + Everett. So the offense was and upgrade over '05. Fangraphs shows Anderson was better than Rowand on defense in '06 as well.

 

The one and only reason the Sox didn't make the playoffs is because the team ERA went up a full run more than '05. It's unfortunate Vazquez pitched as badly as the rest of the Sox that year, but getting a 200 inn. workhorse who strikes guys out was not the wrong idea.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Vance Law

[Balta1701]

Thome + Anderson was better than Rowand + Everett. So the offense was and upgrade over '05. Fangraphs shows Anderson was better than Rowand on defense in '06 as well.

 

The one and only reason the Sox didn't make the playoffs is because the team ERA went up a full run more than '05. It's unfortunate Vazquez pitched as badly as the rest of the Sox that year, but getting a 200 inn. workhorse who strikes guys out was not the wrong idea.

(I'll continue to add...you can't prove it with WAR or anything else like that, but regularly putting Mackowiak out in CF the entire year destroyed that defense and was a huge portion of that ERA spike. I'll go to my grave thinking that team makes the playoffs if he never plays CF.)

[jamesdiego]

It is easy in hindsight. The Sox didn't believe in McCarthy. That's why they didn't want him in the rotation, and why they traded him so quickly.

 

 

Wasn't the rumor back then that Kenny traded McCarthy because there was a confrontation, when KW was hitting on Brandon's gf? haha Good times. You don't give Kenny the booty he wants, then you're out the F'n door man. Not that any of it was true