Jaso an offseason target

[Balta1701]

While I don't think he will be anything special, I am semi-surprised so many people are jumping off the Phegley ship so soon as well

I'm pretty sure I predicted everyone jumping off his ship before he was even called up.

 

That said...if the team/org/scouts are jumping off his ship too, there might be a reason.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I'm pretty sure I predicted everyone jumping off his ship before he was even called up.

 

That said...if the team/org/scouts are jumping off his ship too, there might be a reason.

Is there anything you've seen that indicates anyone in the org. is jumping off his ship? I read as much as probably anyone about the Sox and I haven't seen anything except Hahn saying he may have overlooked ( or something along those lines) the catching situation.

 

I remember the excitement in the game threads that 1st week or 2 he was up and hitting HR's and getting late inning hits. Then pitcher's started throwing him a lot of stuff out of the zone. He definitely needs to refine his approach. He seems a bit hyperactive at the plate . Looks like he is capable of being a decent hitter if he can lay off the crap, but that's the battle every prospect has to make to MLB pitching ,Semien too.

[Balta1701]

Is there anything you've seen that indicates anyone in the org. is jumping off his ship? I read as much as probably anyone about the Sox and I haven't seen anything except Hahn saying he may have overlooked ( or something along those lines) the catching situation.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Those quotes definitely did suggest that the Sox could have soured on him, and the fact that they're constantly linked to every catcher who is available (not just by us) could suggest that as well.

 

Then again, they could just be doing their due diligence as well. I won't know the answer to that question until mid-Feb.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Yeah, that's what I meant. Those quotes definitely did suggest that the Sox could have soured on him, and the fact that they're constantly linked to every catcher who is available (not just by us) could suggest that as well.

 

Then again, they could just be doing their due diligence as well. I won't know the answer to that question until mid-Feb.

I think that more an indication that Hahn didn't adequately prepare for a full blown Flowers implosion than anything. Any time you have a youngish catcher geting his 1st big opportunity ,a well established ML catcher as a backup is a must and Hahn didn't do that. It's more an indictment of himself than anything else.

[Dick Allen]

Yeah, that's what I meant. Those quotes definitely did suggest that the Sox could have soured on him, and the fact that they're constantly linked to every catcher who is available (not just by us) could suggest that as well.

 

Then again, they could just be doing their due diligence as well. I won't know the answer to that question until mid-Feb.

I agree. From what I have read, they still seem much higher on Flowers than Phegley. As I have stated before, I still think Flowers is a fine back up.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I agree. From what I have read, they still seem much higher on Flowers than Phegley. As I have stated before, I still think Flowers is a fine back up.

I don't get that at all . Flower's is getting a bit long in the tooth ( 28 when the season starts) for the Sox to be higher on him than Phegley and that 34% K rate was really high. Injuries comments aside I haven't read a thing to think Flowers is preferred over Phegley.

Edited November 19, 2013 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Dick Allen]

I don't get that at all . Flower's is getting a bit long in the tooth ( 28 when the season starts) for the Sox to be higher on him than Phegley and that 34% K rate was really high. Injuries comments aside I haven't read a thing to think Flowers is preferred over Phegley.

I think they realize neither is a #1 catcher. Flowers has shown in the past he can be a good back up. They liked him so much as a back up they gave him the #1 job, and as you pointed out, had zero back up plan.

[Balta1701]

I think they realize neither is a #1 catcher. Flowers has shown in the past he can be a good back up. They liked him so much as a back up they gave him the #1 job, and as you pointed out, had zero back up plan.

If this is the case, and they think there is a 0% chance of either of them hitting well enough to be a #1 catcher, then they simply have to come out of this offseason with either Salty or McCann (or pull off a trade for one).

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I think they realize neither is a #1 catcher. Flowers has shown in the past he can be a good back up. They liked him so much as a back up they gave him the #1 job, and as you pointed out, had zero back up plan.

I don't think the Sox liked him so much as a backup that they gave him the starting job. It was more of well, you've been a backup for a bit now AJ is getting old and Flowers showed power , that he could take a walk and was cheaper that the circumstances combined to give him a shot.

 

They're in a position now to give Phegley every chance to prove he can be that the #1 catcher. Flowers K's at a rate even higher than Dunn without showing he can get hot for a 3 month period like Dunn can. If Phegley can hit .250 ( which seems realistic ) and increase his walk rate , provide some power the position will be his for 3-4 years given how bad the market is for catchers. Just need that LH veteran backup behind him.

 

If they can't give Phegley a chance at being #1 what's the sense of going young ?

[Dick Allen]

I don't think the Sox liked him so much as a backup that they gave him the starting job. It was more of well, you've been a backup for a bit now AJ is getting old and Flowers showed power , that he could take a walk and was cheaper that the circumstances combined to give him a shot.

 

They're in a position now to give Phegley every chance to prove he can be that the #1 catcher. Flowers K's at a rate even higher than Dunn without showing he can get hot for a 3 month period like Dunn can. If Phegley can hit .250 ( which seems realistic ) and increase his walk rate , provide some power the position will be his for 3-4 years given how bad the market is for catchers. Just need that LH veteran backup behind him.

 

If they can't give Phegley a chance at being #1 what's the sense of going young ?

I don't know about going young. Phegley is only 2 years younger than Flowers.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

In the majority of the posts, we see a lot of Flowers/Phegley because obviously no one knows which one sticks around but there has been little talk as to which one does stick around. I am definitely leanings towards Flowers when you consider the fact that he is more refined, has shown good defense prior to last year and is probably the better bat in terms of a LH/RH platoon. Throw in the fact that Phegley has more options and it's pretty clear. I don't know how much of his shoulder injury limited him but regardless he seems like the better option.

 

Things on Flowers' side: good rapport with pitchers, better defense, more offensive potential, better/more sustained success in the minors, better swing, better approach, better against LHP.

 

Things on Phegley's side: less time sucking in the majors, an unconventional trajectory in development due to strange ailment, ......

 

Anyone care to make a case for the latter?

Don't think you can make the case Flower's is better at hitting LHP . He hit. 151 against LHP last year . 2012 he was better, 2011 worse than he hit RHP. Phegley's time last year he hit .261 against LHP in his 1st exposure to ML pitching while K' ing 15% less than Flowers. What good is a better swing/approach if you can't make contact ? After 2 trials as a backup and 1 as the starter Flowers has been a huge failure. I don't even see why you think he has any offensive potential let alone more than Phegly, while being 2 years older.

[Jake]

Phegley had a 34 wRC+ last year. 34!!

 

His "good" month, July, was 59.

 

Then 28.

 

Then 17.

 

He had the worst wRC+ of any MLB player that had as many at-bats as he did. Among the big sluggers who hit better are Jeff Francouer, Jamey Carroll, Brendan Ryan, Pete Kozma, Chris Getz, B.J. "worst season ever" Upton, Tyler Flowers, Jeff Keppinger. This is a rate stat, meaning those players didn't have an advantage by having more plate appearances. He was just literally the worst batter in all of baseball.

 

This wasn't a deal where he started looking better as time went on, either. It was pretty much unfathomable awfulness after the first 5 games or so. He got progressively worse.

 

That doesn't mean he sucks or should be released, but it makes little sense at this point to argue that he should do well in the MLB. He has been pushed aggressively throughout his career and he needs more fine tuning. Being in MLB made him worse. He needs to go hit in AAA again - it was the first time his wRC+ ever rated him as above his league's average, short of two

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I don't know about going young. Phegley is only 2 years younger than Flowers.

26 is still young enough that if you can start hitting ML pitching that you'll likely have the job for 3-6 years . That's the definition of long term solution when talking about catchers.

[Eminor3rd]

I don't know about going young. Phegley is only 2 years younger than Flowers.

 

Which is a huge difference.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Phegley had a 34 wRC+ last year. 34!!

 

His "good" month, July, was 59.

 

Then 28.

 

Then 17.

 

He had the worst wRC+ of any MLB player that had as many at-bats as he did. Among the big sluggers who hit better are Jeff Francouer, Jamey Carroll, Brendan Ryan, Pete Kozma, Chris Getz, B.J. "worst season ever" Upton, Tyler Flowers, Jeff Keppinger. This is a rate stat, meaning those players didn't have an advantage by having more plate appearances. He was just literally the worst batter in all of baseball.

 

This wasn't a deal where he started looking better as time went on, either. It was pretty much unfathomable awfulness after the first 5 games or so. He got progressively worse.

 

That doesn't mean he sucks or should be released, but it makes little sense at this point to argue that he should do well in the MLB. He has been pushed aggressively throughout his career and he needs more fine tuning. Being in MLB made him worse. He needs to go hit in AAA again - it was the first time his wRC+ ever rated him as above his league's average, short of two o

Trust me I am not enamored of Phegley but i am moreso than Flowers who has had 3 years to show something, anything and he hasn't. As I said before Phegley's progression has been severly stunted due to health and defintely can use more developmental time. He just was having a good year in the minors and the Sox had huge problems at catcher. He had to be given a shot. Yes he was terrible as was every catcher on the team last year. Degree's of terrible are still terrible and I can aceept it a lot more with Phegley than I can with Flowers because it was his 1st crack at the Bigs.

[Eminor3rd]

Funny thing is, no one will know if you are being facetious here or not.

 

Sure they will -- if I was, it would be green

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Not trying to be one of those guys but Phegley had an OBP of .223 in quite a decent sample size. Flowers has outperformed Phegley in that respect every season in all sorts of varying sample sizes. I am not making a case that Flowers should start, just that he is a better back up than Phegley.

It's cool . We're arguing about the tallest midget here. I think Flowers had his shot and he'll never be able to hit. I'll go with the younger guy until Phegley has had his comparative shot . I wouldn't be upset at all about Flowers being a backup (again) while Phegs get more AB's in the minors as long as we have a LH catcher for most of the AB's against righties .

[Eminor3rd]

It's cool . We're arguing about the tallest midget here. I think Flowers had his shot and he'll never be able to hit. I'll go with the younger guy until Phegley has had his comparative shot . I wouldn't be upset at all about Flowers being a backup (again) while Phegs get more AB's in the minors as long as we have a LH catcher for most of the AB's against righties .

 

Right, they have both been extra bad. If you have to choose between them, you should choose the one you think has more upside. Flowers has the better body and had the better prospect profile, but Phegley is younger and has experienced less failure.

[Balta1701]

Both fair assessments. At least Flowers has the fact that he has a decent understanding of the strike zone and could run into a ball. Phegley is just going to go up there hacking to no avail.

This problem is why I keep saying that this is a decision Hahn can only make after hearing his scouts. But...if his scouts are saying Phegley has zero chance of becoming a starter, you have to come away with McCann or Salty this offseason when they're available.

[Balta1701]

I don't necessarily agree with that. We have to address the catching position and Hahn has acknowledged that. We can do it via trade as well. I am not sold on either McCann or Salty in this market.

A trade works too and I missed if I failed to include that this time.

 

Basically my perspective is this. If the scouts say the Sox have a remote chance of having a long-term option in Phlowgley, then maybe you look for a LH hitting backup and go with 1 of them as the starter. If they say you're screwed if you count on these people, then you need to come away with a long-term option somewhere and get working on them.

 

If you've got a trade that works, great, do it.

 

The only thing I don't want to see is a 1 year stopgap starter that actually costs money. $500k is ok, but anything more than that is completely backwards and the opposite of everything we should be doing.

[Balta1701]

Considering the state we are at as an organization, I don't believe in stopgaps either but due to nature of the position, if there is somewhere you get a stop gap it has to be catcher.

I'd rather have Phlowgley phlail away at the baseball and see if one of them can turn into anything useful than that. By a long shot.

[Baron]

As far as a backup depending on if he is healthy I think I would go with Flowers....and it pains me to say that because I honestly dont want to watch him play anymore. Either a trade or a free agent singing we need to get someone new in here. Cant go into next season with those two rotating at catcher again. The Ruiz contract however probably boosted Salty's market value a little bit. He still is though my number 1 option.

[NorthSideSox72]

If you can't come away with a multi-year player (at least 3 years) who is likely to be average or better at catcher... I'd rather give Phegley a shot than trade for someone else's Phegley. The middle ground is a tough call, someone like Jaso may work, for the right deal. But if the trade and FA markets are too expensive, for 2014, I don't mind letting Flegley continue their thing. And I think Phegley, with more reps, may even show he can be a starter - that would be a big win, and something worth exploring.

 

[South Side Fireworks Man]

If this is the case, and they think there is a 0% chance of either of them hitting well enough to be a #1 catcher, then they simply have to come out of this offseason with either Salty or McCann (or pull off a trade for one).

They'd be better off giving McCann $80M than giving Salty $40M. Either overpay for McCann or make a reasonable trade. If all else fails however, bring back AJ rather than force us to watch Flowers/Phegley again. That's just embarassing.

[Balta1701]

bring back AJ rather than force us to watch Flowers/Phegley again. That's just embarassing.

Like I said, a 1 year stopgap is the worst option on the list. AJ is a 1 year stopgap. I'd vastly rather save the few million bucks and spend it on a reliever or something like that in a year when we go into the season thinking we have a shot. I think bringing back AJ would be an embarrassing move for this team. Completely the opposite of what they should be doing.