Frank Thomas: "I could have won 4 more MVP's"

[southsider2k5]

There were many reports of voters turned off about it. Frank's biggest obstacle is not his numbers vs. PED guys, he is seen as clean. His biggest problem in whether or not he will be a first ballot guy is how much he DH'd. He doesn't have to campaign to get in. It will happen really soon.

 

I do think Frank will get an extra boost of support from the morality police amongst the writers. They have been quick to punish the PEDs guys, by contrast that means they need to reward the "clean" guys. Frank is the face of the clean players. I think he gets in with around 90% of the vote.

[Big Hurtin]

I do think Frank will get an extra boost of support from the morality police amongst the writers. They have been quick to punish the PEDs guys, by contrast that means they need to reward the "clean" guys. Frank is the face of the clean players. I think he gets in with around 90% of the vote.

Get ready to hear some national guys say "How do we know for sure he was clean?"

[flavum]

If Frank doesn't get in this year it's not because he doesn't deserve to be a "first ballot" guy (which is a ridiculous term---either you are or you are not a hall of famer), it's because of the steroid era guys clogging the ballot, and voters are only allowed to vote for ten players. In a clean baseball world, Clemens and Bonds would have gotten in last year. And probably Bagwell and Piazza.

 

Now, with Maddux and Glavine being added, it's getting ridiculous. I think Frank gets over the 75% mark, but I'll say in the 78-82 range.

 

But overall, I'm tired of the Hall of Fame. It's supposed to be a positive thing for Baseball, and it's all about negativity and who doesn't belong. There's no fun in that.

[Texsox]

Get ready to hear some national guys say "How do we know for sure he was clean?"

 

Which is a valid question now that Frank is making a claim along those lines. There are many reasons to support Frank playing clean so a close scrutiny will only help his cause. About the only time I can remember any discussion about PED and Frank was after his tricep tear and some uninformed writers were speculating along the lines of who the hell tears a tricep?

 

I never really got the first ballot thing, it isn't like a player goes out and adds to his career after not getting in on the first ballot. But I also see the "honor" thing that comes with it. It's kind of the elite of the elite. Frank was the most talented batter I ever saw. He silenced bars, home or away, when he entered the batter's box. I have nerv really had a desire to visit the HoF, and I've been in the neighborhood a few times. I will make a stop after Frank is inducted. If he is never elected, I will never go.

[Eminor3rd]

Oh without question Joe Crede

 

Ummmm hello? Tadahito Iguchi?

[southsider2k5]

Get ready to hear some national guys say "How do we know for sure he was clean?"

 

Meh, I dont' care what the talking heads say.

[southsider2k5]

If Frank doesn't get in this year it's not because he doesn't deserve to be a "first ballot" guy (which is a ridiculous term---either you are or you are not a hall of famer), it's because of the steroid era guys clogging the ballot, and voters are only allowed to vote for ten players. In a clean baseball world, Clemens and Bonds would have gotten in last year. And probably Bagwell and Piazza.

 

Now, with Maddux and Glavine being added, it's getting ridiculous. I think Frank gets over the 75% mark, but I'll say in the 78-82 range.

 

But overall, I'm tired of the Hall of Fame. It's supposed to be a positive thing for Baseball, and it's all about negativity and who doesn't belong. There's no fun in that.

 

Maddux will be in the 99% range, as well he should. As for Tom Glavine, I think Thomas's HOF credentials are better than his.

[Milkman delivers]

Maddux will be in the 99% range, as well he should. As for Tom Glavine, I think Thomas's HOF credentials are better than his.

 

You'd be a fool to believe the HOF voters won't put Maddux and Glavine in at the same time. The stories write themselves.

[southsider2k5]

You'd be a fool to believe the HOF voters won't put Maddux and Glavine in at the same time. The stories write themselves.

 

I'm not saying he doesn't get in, he just won't be a 90% guy. More like 80.

[LittleHurt05]

Maddux will be in the 99% range, as well he should. As for Tom Glavine, I think Thomas's HOF credentials are better than his.

 

That fact that Maddux will be in the 99% range and not 100% tells you everything you need to know about the HOF voters.

[flavum]

The first instinct the voters are going to have is to check Maddux, then Glavine because of the teammate pitching thing, then Frank.

 

I'll predict:

 

Maddux 99.1%

Glavine 87.5%

Thomas 78.7%

 

They all count as getting in, so I wouldn't complain. But this is the order I expect.

[southsider2k5]

That fact that Maddux will be in the 99% range and not 100% tells you everything you need to know about the HOF voters.

 

Thomas fits their "standards" very well though. I think that is why he is a slam dunk this year.

[Eminor3rd]

Thomas fits their "standards" very well though. I think that is why he is a slam dunk this year.

 

So did Biggio

[lasttriptotulsa]

So did Biggio

 

The only thing Biggio has going for him as far as HOF (and I do think he should be in) is the counting stats. They look at much more than that. Biggio never really came close to winning an MVP, never was a dominant player or near being the best in the league and to be honest I really never looked at Biggio as being a HOFer using the eye test. When you watched Frank play, you knew you were watching one of the greatest hitters to ever play. I never had that kind of feeling with Biggio.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Which is a valid question now that Frank is making a claim along those lines. There are many reasons to support Frank playing clean so a close scrutiny will only help his cause. About the only time I can remember any discussion about PED and Frank was after his tricep tear and some uninformed writers were speculating along the lines of who the hell tears a tricep?

 

I never really got the first ballot thing, it isn't like a player goes out and adds to his career after not getting in on the first ballot. But I also see the "honor" thing that comes with it. It's kind of the elite of the elite. Frank was the most talented batter I ever saw. He silenced bars, home or away, when he entered the batter's box. I have nerv really had a desire to visit the HoF, and I've been in the neighborhood a few times. I will make a stop after Frank is inducted. If he is never elected, I will never go.

 

I can understand the whole reserving the 1st ballot thing for "inner circle" type HOFers. What I think is incredibly stupid is how guys like Dawson and Rice (possibly Morris) weren't good enough on the first 14 ballots, but suddenly became HOFers on their 15th ballot.

[Milkman delivers]

I hope he gets in on the first ballot, but I see him getting screwed. I think Biggio gets in this time, and I believe that hurts Frank's chances even more.

[SI1020]

The only thing Biggio has going for him as far as HOF (and I do think he should be in) is the counting stats. They look at much more than that. Biggio never really came close to winning an MVP, never was a dominant player or near being the best in the league and to be honest I really never looked at Biggio as being a HOFer using the eye test. When you watched Frank play, you knew you were watching one of the greatest hitters to ever play. I never had that kind of feeling with Biggio.

If you're into the newer stats Biggio's JAWS is 53.3, with the average HOFer 2B man at 57.0. His JAWS beats 10 other HOF 2B men including Nellie Fox. I completely agree with your assessment of the hitter Frank Thomas.

 

[Eminor3rd]

If you're into the newer stats Biggio's JAWS is 53.3, with the average HOFer 2B man at 57.0. His JAWS beats 10 other HOF 2B men including Nellie Fox. I completely agree with your assessment of the hitter Frank Thomas.

 

Nellie Fox was pretty overrated though, wasn't he? I mean, just looking at his numbers, he was more of a "good player for a long time" than a HOFer. A few good seasons with the stick but overall a below league average hitter for his career that added a ton of defensive value.

 

EDIT: Luis Aparicio looks like the same thing but more extreme -- even better defender and a much worse hitter. Another very valuable player but not a HOFer IMO.

 

Now, Luke Appling, on the other hand, looks like a stud. Elite D on top of a career 115 wRC+ out of a SS. Damn.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Eminor3rd

[lasttriptotulsa]

Nellie Fox was pretty overrated though, wasn't he? I mean, just looking at his numbers, he was more of a "good player for a long time" than a HOFer. A few good seasons with the stick but overall a below league average hitter for his career that added a ton of defensive value.

 

EDIT: Luis Aparicio looks like the same thing but more extreme -- even better defender and a much worse hitter. Another very valuable player but not a HOFer IMO.

 

Now, Luke Appling, on the other hand, looks like a stud. Elite D on top of a career 115 wRC+ out of a SS. Damn.

 

Biggio is the prototypical "good player for a long time". If you look at any one of his seasons, he never really had a single season that would stand out as "hall of fame". But when you have very good seasons for 20 years and amass 3000 hits to go along with nearly 700 doubles you deserve to be in.

 

When you look at Frank Thomas, I count 8 hall of fame type season along with other All-Star level seasons. While I like Biggio, if he gets in before Frank or even Bagwell I will be disappointed.

 

As far as Appling goes, yes that guy was awesome. If he didn't lose nearly two full seasons to military service, he would have easily eclipsed 3000 hits.

Edited November 22, 2013 by lasttriptotulsa

[Real]

List of every Sox HOF'er who got in on first ballot?

[Leonard Zelig]

List of every Sox HOF'er who got in on first ballot?

 

Tom Seaver

Steve Carlton

[SI1020]

Nellie Fox was pretty overrated though, wasn't he? I mean, just looking at his numbers, he was more of a "good player for a long time" than a HOFer. A few good seasons with the stick but overall a below league average hitter for his career that added a ton of defensive value.

 

EDIT: Luis Aparicio looks like the same thing but more extreme -- even better defender and a much worse hitter. Another very valuable player but not a HOFer IMO.

 

Now, Luke Appling, on the other hand, looks like a stud. Elite D on top of a career 115 wRC+ out of a SS. Damn.

Did you ever see them play? Defensively they sure beat the hell out of Alexi and Beckham and offensively much better than you would think "just by looking at the numbers." In fact IIRC Bill James once wrote an article giving support to the awarding of the MVP to Nellie Fox in 1959. I have spent countless hours on the newer stats and am not a devotee of saber. I made my original post because the newer stats get more traction and standing among fans with each passing year, and Biggio's JAWS and WAR seem to indicate that he should not be summarily dismissed for HOF consideration.