Royals sign Jason Vargas

[Chicago White Sox]

Almost as ridiculous as giving Roy Oswalt $5 million.

When have I ever said anything about Roy Oswalt?

[Dick Allen]

When have I ever said anything about Roy Oswalt?

That was supposed to be for chili.

[Dick Allen]

Salty has had over 1.5 WAR in three straight seasons. I don't know why you picked the last four seasons considering Salty played 12 games in 2010.

I was just looking at the WAR numbers not the games. I actually threw out the negative WAR he had up until then, and thought 4 years because of the contract length.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Dick Allen

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

That was supposed to be for chili.

 

Nice diversion.

[TaylorStSox]

The bottom lime is this guy has averaged 1.8 WAR the last 4 years. I have read WAR is worth $5 million to $6 million per. So the last 4 years he has been worth at least $36 million, so why is this an overpay.

A. You just got owned.

B. Your avatar creeps me out.

C. Justin Vargas and Salty play different positions. There is no relevance.

[JoshPR]

D. It's his opinion.. j/k

 

 

I'm not going to argue stats, but i too think salty ain't that good. Strikes outa bunch, can't trow, ca't hit lefties. For 10 mil, i'd bring AJ back for probably less. And people here know i wasn't too fond of AJ his last few years here....

Edited November 22, 2013 by JoshPR

[Chicago White Sox]

D. It's his opinion.. j/k

 

 

I'm not going to argue stats, but i too think salty ain't that good. Strikes outa bunch, can't trow, ca't hit lefties. For 10 mil, i'd bring AJ back for probably less. And people here know i wasn't too fond of AJ his last few years here....

But we're talking about two players who play two completely different positions and two organizations with completely different needs and resources. Whether the Royals signing Vargas to a $4/32M deal or the Sox signing Salty to a 4/$40 are good moves is completely irrelevant to one another. Each move needs be evaluated separately in their own context.

[southsider2k5]

How's that John Danks signing looking for us? I mean, can a Sox fan really point fingers coming off 99 losses?

 

The Sox signed John Danks this off season?

[Dick Allen]

A. You just got owned.

B. Your avatar creeps me out.

C. Justin Vargas and Salty play different positions. There is no relevance.

I do think it's funny it is cherry picking when I choose adding WAR that gives a guy a higher WAR than his career total. So what if they play different positions. The Royals need a pitcher, not a catcher and isn't a 2 WAR a 2 WAR no matter what position they play? If its $5 million per WAR, he has to average. 1.6 per to be "worth it". If it is $6 million per WAR, 1.3. He has averaged 1.8. I don't understand how that is a bad overpay. It probably is too long, but most pitchers contracts are too long.

[witesoxfan]

I do think it's funny it is cherry picking when I choose adding WAR that gives a guy a higher WAR than his career total. So what if they play different positions. The Royals need a pitcher, not a catcher and isn't a 2 WAR a 2 WAR no matter what position they play? If its $5 million per WAR, he has to average. 1.6 per to be "worth it". If it is $6 million per WAR, 1.3. He has averaged 1.8. I don't understand how that is a bad overpay. It probably is too long, but most pitchers contracts are too long.

 

It's not even cherry picking but flat out out lying. Jarrod Saltalamacchia had 30 plate appearances at the major league level 4 years ago. That's complete and utter chickens*** to use that sort of argument.

 

Roy Halladay has a 15.8 WAR over the last 4 years while Chris Sale's is only 11.7. Are you going to take Roy Halladay over Chris Sale or are you going to admit that the argument you used was absolutely stupid and the timeline manipulative and wrong?

[Dick Allen]

It's not even cherry picking but flat out out lying. Jarrod Saltalamacchia had 30 plate appearances at the major league level 4 years ago. That's complete and utter chickens*** to use that sort of argument.

 

Roy Halladay has a 15.8 WAR over the last 4 years while Chris Sale's is only 11.7. Are you going to take Roy Halladay over Chris Sale or are you going to admit that the argument you used was absolutely stupid and the timeline manipulative and wrong?

Not even close. Just keep in mind, when I did my quick number and didn't look at AB, I gave Salty a 7.3 WAR. It is 6.9 for his career, and he had significant AB prior.

Are you saying Vargas' WAR is irrelevant? That his contract is out of line? It wasn't manipulative, at least intentionally, and it wasn't really meant as a knock on Salty, although admittedly I don't want the sox to spend that money on him. It was comparative. A lot of people love Salty at $10 million per, but say the Royals are fools to give this guy, $8 million per. The Royals have a pitching need. I'm sure there are more people here than me who thought Ervin Santana was a waste of money last year, but it worked out fine for them. This probably will too, at least for the first couple of seasons. They have a big park. Vargas does well in big parks.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

Not even close. Just keep in mind, when I did my quick number and didn't look at AB, I gave Salty a 7.3 WAR. It is 6.9 for his career, and he had significant AB prior.

Are you saying Vargas' WAR is irrelevant? That his contract is out of line? It wasn't manipulative, at least intentionally, and it wasn't really meant as a knock on Salty, although admittedly I don't want the sox to spend that money on him. It was comparative. A lot of people love Salty at $10 million per, but say the Royals are fools to give this guy, $8 million per. The Royals have a pitching need. I'm sure there are more people here than me who thought Ervin Santana was a waste of money last year, but it worked out fine for them. This probably will too, at least for the first couple of seasons. They have a big park. Vargas does well in big parks.

 

I'm not saying his WAR is irrelevant. I actually really don't mind that contract for the Royals. It initially seemed like an overpay, but it's really not a bad deal. It's league average production for about league average rate. He's just a soft tosser who doesn't have a ton of upside which is why people have been overreacting. I think it's a perfectly acceptable, if boring, move for the Royals.

 

I don't even have a problem with you comparing the WAR of a pitcher to the WAR of a hitter. The point of WAR is to try and be able to generally quantify the value of hitters and pitchers so we can value their production properly and compare them to one another.

 

The only problem I have is you comparing Vargas over the last 4 years to Saltalamacchia over the last 4 years. As I said, if you want to make that comparison, my comparison of Halladay to Sale is on the table. Saltalamacchia has only had significant playing time over the last 3 years. Using 30 plate appearances from 4 years ago is absolutely ridiculous.

 

#1) What players did 4 years ago is, for the most part, completely irrelevant to what they do today. Carl Crawford had a 7.4 WAR and Andres Torres had a 6.6 WAR in 2010. Do you want to bring them in and give them big deals?

#2) Tying into that, recent production is much more relevant, applicable, and likely to be repeated. As has been pointed out

 

3 years - Saltalamacchia 7.1, Vargas 4.5

2 years - Saltalamacchia 5.5, Vargas 2.3

1 year - Saltalamacchia 3.6, Vargas 1.5

 

Don't you think you'd like to give out a contract based on those numbers, or do you still want to give out big deals to Colby Lewis, Tommy Hanson, Roy Oswalt, and Chad Billingsley?

[Dick Allen]

I'm not saying his WAR is irrelevant. I actually really don't mind that contract for the Royals. It initially seemed like an overpay, but it's really not a bad deal. It's league average production for about league average rate. He's just a soft tosser who doesn't have a ton of upside which is why people have been overreacting. I think it's a perfectly acceptable, if boring, move for the Royals.

 

I don't even have a problem with you comparing the WAR of a pitcher to the WAR of a hitter. The point of WAR is to try and be able to generally quantify the value of hitters and pitchers so we can value their production properly and compare them to one another.

 

The only problem I have is you comparing Vargas over the last 4 years to Saltalamacchia over the last 4 years. As I said, if you want to make that comparison, my comparison of Halladay to Sale is on the table. Saltalamacchia has only had significant playing time over the last 3 years. Using 30 plate appearances from 4 years ago is absolutely ridiculous.

 

#1) What players did 4 years ago is, for the most part, completely irrelevant to what they do today. Carl Crawford had a 7.4 WAR and Andres Torres had a 6.6 WAR in 2010. Do you want to bring them in and give them big deals?

#2) Tying into that, recent production is much more relevant, applicable, and likely to be repeated. As has been pointed out

 

3 years - Saltalamacchia 7.1, Vargas 4.5

2 years - Saltalamacchia 5.5, Vargas 2.3

1 year - Saltalamacchia 3.6, Vargas 1.5

 

Don't you think you'd like to give out a contract based on those numbers, or do you still want to give out big deals to Colby Lewis, Tommy Hanson, Roy Oswalt, and Chad Billingsley?

I picked 4 years because that was the length of the contract and Vargas is of the age where the 4 years are reasonably consistent.

[southsider2k5]

It's not even cherry picking but flat out out lying. Jarrod Saltalamacchia had 30 plate appearances at the major league level 4 years ago. That's complete and utter chickens*** to use that sort of argument.

 

Roy Halladay has a 15.8 WAR over the last 4 years while Chris Sale's is only 11.7. Are you going to take Roy Halladay over Chris Sale or are you going to admit that the argument you used was absolutely stupid and the timeline manipulative and wrong?

 

 

I'm not saying his WAR is irrelevant. I actually really don't mind that contract for the Royals. It initially seemed like an overpay, but it's really not a bad deal. It's league average production for about league average rate. He's just a soft tosser who doesn't have a ton of upside which is why people have been overreacting. I think it's a perfectly acceptable, if boring, move for the Royals.

 

I don't even have a problem with you comparing the WAR of a pitcher to the WAR of a hitter. The point of WAR is to try and be able to generally quantify the value of hitters and pitchers so we can value their production properly and compare them to one another.

 

The only problem I have is you comparing Vargas over the last 4 years to Saltalamacchia over the last 4 years. As I said, if you want to make that comparison, my comparison of Halladay to Sale is on the table. Saltalamacchia has only had significant playing time over the last 3 years. Using 30 plate appearances from 4 years ago is absolutely ridiculous.

 

#1) What players did 4 years ago is, for the most part, completely irrelevant to what they do today. Carl Crawford had a 7.4 WAR and Andres Torres had a 6.6 WAR in 2010. Do you want to bring them in and give them big deals?

#2) Tying into that, recent production is much more relevant, applicable, and likely to be repeated. As has been pointed out

 

3 years - Saltalamacchia 7.1, Vargas 4.5

2 years - Saltalamacchia 5.5, Vargas 2.3

1 year - Saltalamacchia 3.6, Vargas 1.5

 

Don't you think you'd like to give out a contract based on those numbers, or do you still want to give out big deals to Colby Lewis, Tommy Hanson, Roy Oswalt, and Chad Billingsley?

 

DA, it is time to walk away. You have been pretty thoroughly dismantled here.

 

[BlackSox13]

I retract my post on the first page. Considering the Sox were paying Floyd (same age as Vargas) 9.5m in 13 to put up his typical low to mid 4 era, this contract isn't bad at all since Vargas has better numbers.