Frank Thomas Is a Hall of Famer

[Eminor3rd]

It's wrong on just the basic premise of voting. He didn't vote for who he wanted, he voted for who others wanted. People may have a dumb rational for why they voted but at least it was for who they thought deserved it.

 

If everyone is allowed to "vote however they damn well please," how is taking a poll for your vote any sort of infraction? Gurick decided he wanted his vote to make some asinine personal statement, Le Batard decided he wanted his vote to reflect the opinion of the fans.

[southsider2k5]

If everyone is allowed to "vote however they damn well please," how is taking a poll for your vote any sort of infraction? Gurick decided he wanted his vote to make some asinine personal statement, Le Batard decided he wanted his vote to reflect the opinion of the fans.

 

I think the obvious problem is the way he handled it with involving Deadspin. I wonder what the voters conduct rules involve exactly?

 

[ptatc]

If everyone is allowed to "vote however they damn well please," how is taking a poll for your vote any sort of infraction? Gurick decided he wanted his vote to make some asinine personal statement, Le Batard decided he wanted his vote to reflect the opinion of the fans.

Right. He voted the opinion of the fans, not his opinion. I can see why his vote was taken away. Gurick voted his personal statement. I agree is was asinine but it was still his reason not a different person or group of people as Le Batard did. He basically put the vote up for sale as a publicity stunt or he really didn't care. Either way I can see why they revoked it.

[Jake]

I like the 10-person limit and I don't mind that many people vote for fewer than that. You should vote for everyone you believe ought to be a Hall of Famer. If your standards are so loose that it means you want to vote for more than 10 people, too bad -- this is an exclusive club. The way I would vote would also involve voting differently on a player's first ballot than second, if appropriate.

 

My vote would have been:

Frank Thomas (1st ballot)

Greg Maddux (1st ballot)

Curt Schilling

Edgar Martinez

 

with plans to vote for Mussina and Glavine on their second ballots.

 

Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Bagwell, Palmeiro excluded for steroid suspicion

 

[Reddy]

I like the 10-person limit and I don't mind that many people vote for fewer than that. You should vote for everyone you believe ought to be a Hall of Famer. If your standards are so loose that it means you want to vote for more than 10 people, too bad -- this is an exclusive club. The way I would vote would also involve voting differently on a player's first ballot than second, if appropriate.

 

My vote would have been:

Frank Thomas (1st ballot)

Greg Maddux (1st ballot)

Curt Schilling

Edgar Martinez

 

with plans to vote for Mussina and Glavine on their second ballots.

 

Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Bagwell, Palmeiro excluded for steroid suspicion

You seem like a level headed guy - explain the Piazza/Bagwell thing. What hard evidence do you have they used and Schilling didn't?

[Jake]

I don't have hard evidence, but the sparse evidence/anecdotes I have along with my gut feeling based on physique and all that make me want to withhold my "vote." I'm more amenable to voting for Bagwell than Piazza, but I'm not yet comfortable making that vote. The fact that many other writers aren't, despite his quite wonderful career, makes me think I'm not alone in that suspicion.

[flavum]

I'm more lenient on the PED era when it comes to the Hall of Fame.

 

I would never put in Sosa, Palmeiro, or McGwire (or Sheffield next year), because I think they're all about PEDs. They don't get to milestone number without roids. After the milestones, they weren't the best of the best of their era.

 

But I could vote for Clemens as one of the best pitchers of all time, and Piazza and Ivan Rodriguez as the two best catchers of that time.

 

The game of baseball was on steroids---teams knew, the league knew, the ball was juiced many years---hell, the media knew and didn't do anything for a long time.

 

I'm proud that Frank didn't do anything, but I'm in the camp of--How do you have a Hall of Fame without Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens? Hell, it might be fun to see their speeches and which current HOF players don't show up.

[Reddy]

I don't have hard evidence, but the sparse evidence/anecdotes I have along with my gut feeling based on physique and all that make me want to withhold my "vote." I'm more amenable to voting for Bagwell than Piazza, but I'm not yet comfortable making that vote. The fact that many other writers aren't, despite his quite wonderful career, makes me think I'm not alone in that suspicion.

So what about Frank's "physique"?

 

He went from 240 in 1990 to 275 a couple years later.

[Balta1701]

So what about Frank's "physique"?

 

He went from 240 in 1990 to 275 a couple years later.

And that's about when Chicago Sportswriters/talkers started calling him fat and saying that's why his numbers were dropping off.

[SoxAce]

I must be out of loop about Bagwell. Other than being Ken Caminiti's good friend and teammate who he trained with at times in the off-seasons (although Ken himself said he used him when he got to San Diego and his numbers spiked in SD and also the state of Texas being a gold mine with PEDs back in the day so even Biggio has been questioned), I can't find a report or even strong allegations that he took roids. Hell, even his body change doesn't seem to be drastic at all. He's the one player I am stumped about the accusations, other than those.

 

His numbers didn't take a "trajectory arc down", which you normally see when a player is taking them as he ages (or is that when he's clean?). Now, he might of used them in 95 back when he first started weight lifting, but that doesn't explain his 94 year when he wasn't quite as big yet.

 

Yeah, but there’s one little extra factor, though: that “S” word: steroids. Bagwell has been suspected of using steroids, and one theory explaining his low showing last year was that the BBWAA punished him as a possible doper.

 

Was he named by Jose Canseco as a possible ‘roider? No.

 

Was he named in the Mitchell Report as a steroid guy? No.

 

Was he known to flunk any drug tests at any point? No.

 

Did he voluntarily admit to taking ‘roids like Ken Caminiti or Jose Canseco? No.

 

Then why do some think he did it? Simple, he’s got big muscles and hits lots of homers in the 1990s. Oh, there’s a little more. He had a big power spike at age 26 and maintained it. He lifted lots of weights, just like some other accused and known ‘roiders did. Largely, though, it’s skepticism of the entire era.

 

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/...r-jeff-bagwell/

 

Canseco told me personally that he has no knowledge of Bagwell ever doing anything wrong, and we all know the former MLB slugger isn't shy about mentioning names, especially in books.

 

http://www.examiner.com/article/jeff-bagwe...-steroid-rumors

 

Bagwell didn’t actually accumulate muscle weight until after 1995, making it hard to criticize his phenomenal 1994 campaign in which his OPS was above 1.200 and he hit 39 home runs and led the league in total bases.

 

http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2010/12/29/j...t-use-steroids/

 

I could understand the argument against Bagwell had someone—anyone—come forward and said they knew of Bagwell juicing. I could understand the argument if Bagwell was named in the Mitchell Report—but there’s nothing there. There isn’t any evidence.

 

“But, there was a huge intricate cover-up involving every single person who ever came in contact with Jeff Bagwell while he was juicing.” Let’s be realistic—we’re giving baseball players entirely too much credit. These guys aren’t exactly the Gambino crime family. I have a Twitter account, and I can come up with hundreds of examples, almost daily, of athletes blabbing information that is against their own best interests. I have a hard time believing that Jeff Bagwell took steroids and no one said a single word. …not a single word.

 

http://www.jeffpearlman.com/the-blinders-o...-andy-deshaies/

 

Here's his interview a few years ago addressing it. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/columns/story?id=5963276

 

Again, not saying he did or didn't cause even I have my doubts but it's odd... seems as of now (and I say that because MLB is still not releasing full names), he's a victim of the assumption.

Edited January 11, 2014 by SoxAce

[LittleHurt05]

I'm more lenient on the PED era when it comes to the Hall of Fame. I would never put in Sosa, Palmeiro, or McGwire (or Sheffield next year), because I think they're all about PEDs. They don't get to milestone number without roids. After the milestones, they weren't the best of the best of their era. But I could vote for Clemens as one of the best pitchers of all time, and Piazza and Ivan Rodriguez as the two best catchers of that time. The game of baseball was on steroids---teams knew, the league knew, the ball was juiced many years---hell, the media knew and didn't do anything for a long time. I'm proud that Frank didn't do anything, but I'm in the camp of--How do you have a Hall of Fame without Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens? Hell, it might be fun to see their speeches and which current HOF players don't show up.

 

This pretty much sums up my feelings to a T.

 

 

[Jake]

So what about Frank's "physique"?

 

He went from 240 in 1990 to 275 a couple years later.

 

 

This is 18-19 year old Frank Thomas

 

 

This is ~27/28 year old Frank Thomas

 

 

This is 38 year old Frank Thomas

 

 

This is 44 year old Frank Thomas

 

Here is a freak of nature, huge for his whole life, saw his waistline expand while the rest of him stayed the same, and had a pretty benign career in terms of really suspicious events. Was phenomenal, then started missing time from injuries as he got to around age 30, started getting really slow and dealing with more injuries, kept chugging along while becoming more one-dimensional and flawed as a player. By the time he turned 40, he wasn't fit to be a DH in the MLB anymore. He was also a lot less...fit.

 

But hey, at least he's not as fat as Tony Gwynn

 

 

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

 

This is 18-19 year old Frank Thomas

 

 

This is ~27/28 year old Frank Thomas

 

 

This is 38 year old Frank Thomas

 

 

This is 44 year old Frank Thomas

 

Here is a freak of nature, huge for his whole life, saw his waistline expand while the rest of him stayed the same, and had a pretty benign career in terms of really suspicious events. Was phenomenal, then started missing time from injuries as he got to around age 30, started getting really slow and dealing with more injuries, kept chugging along while becoming more one-dimensional and flawed as a player. By the time he turned 40, he wasn't fit to be a DH in the MLB anymore. He was also a lot less...fit.

 

But hey, at least he's not as fat as Tony Gwynn

 

Damn I wondering where Tony Gwynn Jr. went.

[BlackSox13]

Damn I wondering where Tony Gwynn Jr. went.

Apparently he went to the Old Country Buffet!

[Reddy]

Mike Piazza then and "now"

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah totally reminiscent of Barry Bonds. Absolutely.

 

smh gmafb

[Balta1701]

Here's the problem with that concept.

 

 

 

ptatc said he could have some suspicions based on how hard it is to build up the muscles in the forearms like that, but that's supposedly why Palmeiro's drug of choice was Winstrol; it doesn't Bonds-you.

[Reddy]

Further consideration:

 

 

 

 

[Reddy]

Here's the problem with that concept.

 

 

 

ptatc said he could have some suspicions based on how hard it is to build up the muscles in the forearms like that, but that's supposedly why Palmeiro's drug of choice was Winstrol; it doesn't Bonds-you.

 

AND HE WAS OUTED IN THE MITCHELL REPORT!

 

Was Piazza!?

 

[Balta1701]

AND HE WAS OUTED IN THE MITCHELL REPORT!

 

Was Piazza!?

No...but neither was Sosa. The Mitchell report was 95% from like 2 suppliers - the Radomski/McNamee deal and the BALCO investigation documents. There were likely other suppliers that weren't mentioned in the Mitchell Report.

[Reddy]

No...but neither was Sosa.

Give me one piece of evidence from a player - or anyone else - on the record about Piazza's steroid use.

 

Might take a while since it doesn't exist.

 

He doesn't look like a user, and he's never been outed and never failed a drug test. the "suspicion" excuse is asinine.

[Balta1701]

Give me one piece of evidence from a player - or anyone else - on the record about Piazza's steroid use.

 

Might take a while since it doesn't exist.

 

He doesn't look like a user, and he's never been outed and never failed a drug test. the "suspicion" excuse is asinine.

"Never failed a drug test" is literally a useless statement in this league. That's just how it is. Anyone could well have failed the 03 tests and we wouldn't know.

[Reddy]

"Never failed a drug test" is literally a useless statement in this league. That's just how it is. Anyone could well have failed the 03 tests and we wouldn't know.

nonetheless, with the information we all have, how can you justify not voting in the best hitting catcher of all time?

[witesoxfan]

Mike Piazza then and "now"

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah totally reminiscent of Barry Bonds. Absolutely.

 

smh gmafb

 

If you want suspicion, how about facts from the horse's mouth? Piazza admitted using now banned substances in his biography. Honestly - my suspcions alone - I think he was a main figure in PEDs, and he just has never had anyone out him.

 

It has been suspected that as many as 75-90% of players used. They've persecuted like 5-10%. I mean, if more than 1 guy traffics cocaine in Chicago, then more than 1 person traffics PEDs in baseball. The Mitchell Report is not the end all, be all of the steroid era - I think it's merely the first part of the story.

 

Also, I have cooled on my Piazza for the Hall stuff.

Edited January 12, 2014 by witesoxfan

[Jake]

There has been a lot of discussion from former players about suspected use from Piazza. A grown man who suddenly gets outbreaks of back acne is a telltale sign

[Reddy]

There has been a lot of discussion from former players about suspected use from Piazza. A grown man who suddenly gets outbreaks of back acne is a telltale sign

You realize how ridiculous that is right? I'm 27 and I still get acne on occasion. Why have none of those reports come from teammates? Why has no one gone on the record? Anecdotes are anecdotes - likely coming from someone who just didn't like Piazza very much.

 

My point in all this is what's the difference between Piazza and Biggio? Piazza and Bagwell? An anecdote from an off-the-record somebody about back acne? Really? You realize a LOT of things can cause you to break out. Maybe he drank like crazy one night and ate a whole pizza!

 

Listen, frankly I don't even care if he used or didn't because I've moved past caring. If everyone used then the playing field was level right? It's just inconsistent to say "no one from the era should be in the hall" but then want Frank in. However it's also inconsistent to say "i wont vote in anyone who was suspected of PEDs" and then vote in Bagwell/Biggio... or frankly ANYONE not named Frank Thomas. He's literally the only person in baseball who has remained consistent in his stance against PEDs. I don't even know how you can vote in Maddux and Glavine. Why are they immune to suspicion?

 

At the end of the day, Piazza played in NYC. If he'd stayed in LA his whole career or gone to a media market not named NYC he'd be a hall of famer right now. But there's always someone looking to "get ya" in NYC when it comes to pro sports figures.

 

As for Andro - first off it was legal at the time and secondly I will refer back to my position about Hank Aaron, Willy Mays and Gaylord Perry. All "cheaters" who are still in the hall. Explain?