Frank Thomas Is a Hall of Famer

[Jake]

I'm not concerned with Andro nor am I especially concerned about greenies

 

I'm concerned with this:

 

As the hundreds of major league ballplayers who turned to performance-enhancing drugs throughout the 1990s did their absolute best to keep the media at arm’s length, Piazza took the opposite approach. According to several sources, when the subject of performance enhancing was broached with reporters he especially trusted, Piazza fessed up. “Sure, I use,” he told one. “But in limited doses, and not all that often.” (Piazza has denied using performance-enhancing drugs, but there has always been speculation.) Whether or not it was Piazza’s intent, the tactic was brilliant: By letting the media know, off the record, Piazza made the information that much harder to report. Writers saw his bulging muscles, his acne-covered back. They certainly heard the under-the-breath comments from other major league players, some who considered Piazza’s success to be 100 percent chemically delivered. “He’s a guy who did it, and everybody knows it,” says Reggie Jefferson, the longtime major league first baseman. “It’s amazing how all these names, like Roger Clemens, are brought up, yet Mike Piazza goes untouched.”

 

“There was nothing more obvious than Mike on steroids,” says another major league veteran who played against Piazza for years. “Everyone talked about it, everyone knew it. Guys on my team, guys on the Mets. A lot of us came up playing against Mike, so we knew what he looked like back in the day. Frankly, he sucked on the field. Just sucked. After his body changed, he was entirely different. ‘Power from nowhere,’ we called it.”

 

When asked, on a scale of 1 to 10, to grade the odds that Piazza had used performance enhancers, the player doesn’t pause.

 

“A 12,” he says. “Maybe a 13.”

 

That's a published excerpt from Jeff Pearlman's book about (mainly) Roger Clemens's career

[Reddy]

I'm not concerned with Andro nor am I especially concerned about greenies

 

I'm concerned with this:

 

 

 

That's a published excerpt from Jeff Pearlman's book about (mainly) Roger Clemens's career

 

So an unnamed veteran and Reggie Jefferson are our sources? That's the best we've got?

[Jake]

So an unnamed veteran and Reggie Jefferson are our sources? That's the best we've got?

 

And a New York sportswriter as well as numerous other sportswriters who can't talk about it on the record since he told them outright?

 

How much do we expect to get here?

 

 

[claydude14]

Not sure why the Who's Going to Cooperstown thread was locked, would have been nice to have a place to exclusively discuss that without getting mixed in with all this chatter...

 

But holy s***, I went to try and look up hotels tonight and the Oneonta, NY Super 8 I stayed in two summers ago is totally booked that weekend. And since I don't have the money to throw down right this minute, I probably won't be able to book a hotel until I get my tax refund. Looking likely I will spend Saturday night in Albany (a good hour and a half from Cooperstown) because it's got plenty of hotels and there should be things to do Saturday... I'm not concerned with seeing the Hall again as I was just there two summers ago, but damn guess I should have thought of this ahead of time and booked when I still had Christmas money left. Most hotels half an hour away according to hotels.com/priceline that are in my budget require the money today and are non-refundable. The ones that are refundable still require the deposit today. s***.

[Reddy]

And a New York sportswriter as well as numerous other sportswriters who can't talk about it on the record since he told them outright?

 

How much do we expect to get here?

 

Actual sources.

[Jake]

Actual sources.

 

I'm not saying it's unreasonable to believe he's clean -- we see lots of sportswriters voting for him. You just have to recognize that there are reasons for others to not vote for him, which many sportswriters aren't doing...probably due to the widespread suspicion/knowledge among players and writers about his steroid use. There are also probably a few folks that he rubbed the wrong way with his "there is a 'Hispanic conspiracy' against me just because I said all Hispanic players should learn English if they are going to play ball in AMERICA"

Edited January 13, 2014 by Jake

[Reddy]

I'm not saying it's unreasonable to believe he's clean -- we see lots of sportswriters voting for him. You just have to recognize that there are reasons for others to not vote for him, which many sportswriters aren't doing...probably due to the widespread suspicion/knowledge among players and writers about his steroid use. There are also probably a few folks that he rubbed the wrong way with his "there is a 'Hispanic conspiracy' against me just because I said all Hispanic players should learn English if they are going to play ball in AMERICA"

 

Honestly I doubt he was 100% clean, but the problem is you can't make HoF votes based on doubt and suspicion, because that's a slippery and clearly unfair slope. The hall is FULL of cheaters - why are steroids any better or worse? They aren't. It's simply our mass media and access making it such a big deal. Do I wish players had never used? Yep. Do I hate Barry Bonds? Yep. But there's literally no fair way to say who should and shouldn't be in the hall, so in light of that, I don't see another option besides voting the players with the best stats into the hall.

[Dick Allen]

And that's about when Chicago Sportswriters/talkers started calling him fat and saying that's why his numbers were dropping off.

?

He gained 40 pounds and won back to back MVPs.

Look at him in 1990 vs. 1993.

[witesoxfan]

Honestly I doubt he was 100% clean, but the problem is you can't make HoF votes based on doubt and suspicion, because that's a slippery and clearly unfair slope. The hall is FULL of cheaters - why are steroids any better or worse? They aren't. It's simply our mass media and access making it such a big deal. Do I wish players had never used? Yep. Do I hate Barry Bonds? Yep. But there's literally no fair way to say who should and shouldn't be in the hall, so in light of that, I don't see another option besides voting the players with the best stats into the hall.

 

The voters have obviously proven that you CAN refuse to vote for someone based on doubt and suspicion. Why couldn't you? Due to the circumstances, every single player was guilty by association unless you did something to stand out and prove you were clean. Thomas did that.

 

It seems that there's enough support and evidence surrounding Thome and Griffey that they should get in too, but it's certainly possible they don't too. We'll find out in a few years.

[Reddy]

The voters have obviously proven that you CAN refuse to vote for someone based on doubt and suspicion. Why couldn't you? Due to the circumstances, every single player was guilty by association unless you did something to stand out and prove you were clean. Thomas did that.

 

It seems that there's enough support and evidence surrounding Thome and Griffey that they should get in too, but it's certainly possible they don't too. We'll find out in a few years.

 

So why not Bagwell then?

[southsider2k5]

Honestly I doubt he was 100% clean, but the problem is you can't make HoF votes based on doubt and suspicion, because that's a slippery and clearly unfair slope. The hall is FULL of cheaters - why are steroids any better or worse? They aren't. It's simply our mass media and access making it such a big deal. Do I wish players had never used? Yep. Do I hate Barry Bonds? Yep. But there's literally no fair way to say who should and shouldn't be in the hall, so in light of that, I don't see another option besides voting the players with the best stats into the hall.

 

And this is where I say too f***ing bad to MLB. The players wanted an environment that was free from testing, so that a significant portion of them could cheat. The owners and Selig were either too weak, or too scared to actually do something about this, and actually cut out the questions involved in who is clean and who is not.

 

MLB as a whole created this problem with their actions. They can deal with it. They are reaping what they have sown.

[Reddy]

And this is where I say too f***ing bad to MLB. The players wanted an environment that was free from testing, so that a significant portion of them could cheat. The owners and Selig were either too weak, or too scared to actually do something about this, and actually cut out the questions involved in who is clean and who is not.

 

MLB as a whole created this problem with their actions. They can deal with it. They are reaping what they have sown.

 

All I'm saying is that it's horribly inconsistent. Why wasn't Gaylord Perry banned from baseball for life?

[ptatc]

Honestly I doubt he was 100% clean, but the problem is you can't make HoF votes based on doubt and suspicion, because that's a slippery and clearly unfair slope. The hall is FULL of cheaters - why are steroids any better or worse? They aren't. It's simply our mass media and access making it such a big deal. Do I wish players had never used? Yep. Do I hate Barry Bonds? Yep. But there's literally no fair way to say who should and shouldn't be in the hall, so in light of that, I don't see another option besides voting the players with the best stats into the hall.

They are worse. It is the variable which significantly makes you a better and different player. The other variables may help you play up to your potential (greenies) but steroids change your potential in an unnatural way.

 

The other aspect is health. If you concerned about head injuries in football that is nothing compared to what these will to your body.

[ptatc]

You realize how ridiculous that is right? I'm 27 and I still get acne on occasion. Why have none of those reports come from teammates? Why has no one gone on the record? Anecdotes are anecdotes - likely coming from someone who just didn't like Piazza very much.

 

My point in all this is what's the difference between Piazza and Biggio? Piazza and Bagwell? An anecdote from an off-the-record somebody about back acne? Really? You realize a LOT of things can cause you to break out. Maybe he drank like crazy one night and ate a whole pizza!

 

Listen, frankly I don't even care if he used or didn't because I've moved past caring. If everyone used then the playing field was level right? It's just inconsistent to say "no one from the era should be in the hall" but then want Frank in. However it's also inconsistent to say "i wont vote in anyone who was suspected of PEDs" and then vote in Bagwell/Biggio... or frankly ANYONE not named Frank Thomas. He's literally the only person in baseball who has remained consistent in his stance against PEDs. I don't even know how you can vote in Maddux and Glavine. Why are they immune to suspicion?

 

At the end of the day, Piazza played in NYC. If he'd stayed in LA his whole career or gone to a media market not named NYC he'd be a hall of famer right now. But there's always someone looking to "get ya" in NYC when it comes to pro sports figures.

 

As for Andro - first off it was legal at the time and secondly I will refer back to my position about Hank Aaron, Willy Mays and Gaylord Perry. All "cheaters" who are still in the hall. Explain?

You've never seen the acne from someone abusing steroids then. It's not occasional acne. It's worse than most acne you've ever seen. It's really obvious.

[Dick Allen]

All I'm saying is that it's horribly inconsistent. Why wasn't Gaylord Perry banned from baseball for life?

I do agree that at least some cheating has always been embraced by baseball. Old timers still laugh about guys corking bats, throwing spitballs, scuffing balls etc. Even now, catchers are being praised for framing pitches. Making balls appear to be strikes. Isn't that technically cheating? . Guys have been popping pills for decades. I guess the answer is you have to draw the line somewhere, but it is no doubt inconsistent.

[Reddy]

They are worse. It is the variable which significantly makes you a better and different player. The other variables may help you play up to your potential (greenies) but steroids change your potential in an unnatural way.

 

The other aspect is health. If you concerned about head injuries in football that is nothing compared to what these will to your body.

and amphetamines don't? Kick out Hank Aaron!

Edited January 13, 2014 by Reddy

[witesoxfan]

So why not Bagwell then?

 

http://baseballevolution.com/asher/bagwellconspiracy.html

 

There's your doubt right there.

 

and amphetamines don't? Kick out Hank Aaron!

 

He answered this in the post.

 

They are worse. It is the variable which significantly makes you a better and different player. The other variables may help you play up to your potential (greenies) but steroids change your potential in an unnatural way.

 

The other aspect is health. If you concerned about head injuries in football that is nothing compared to what these will to your body.

 

[southsider2k5]

All I'm saying is that it's horribly inconsistent. Why wasn't Gaylord Perry banned from baseball for life?

 

It is inconsistent. And it is that way because MLB wanted it that way.

[Soxbadger]

Yeah its hard for me to support baseballs holier than thou attitude when the hall is full of admitted cheaters. Its just subterfuge to make people believe that they really care, while secretly every team tries to cheat as much as possible to win.

[Dick Allen]

It is inconsistent. And it is that way because MLB wanted it that way.

This is true. If the steroid thing didn't blow up with Balco and Biogenesis, 50 homers a year wouldn't be considered spectacular right now. MLB would still be looking the other way.

 

There is no doubt ARod was hung out to dry here, although it looks like he cheated, they are getting this info from a guy who told a different under oath. He said in the arbritration hearing he didn't have a masking program, but couldn't get off it during the 60 minutes witchhunt. I wonder exactly what his penalty would have been if he still was playing at a level worthy of his contract. I bet he wouldn't have received more than 50 games.

[Jake]

There is nothing that can change onfield outcomes in the way that well-used steroids can. Greenies can increase your focus and energize you in a long season. Andro could give results that would be indistinguishable from what the average person would get by slightly improving their diet or exercise routine. Steroids could turn your shallow flies into homers and do so with little expertise in diet, exercise, or even steroid use -- just use enough of the right stuff, half-ass your post-cycle therapy, and lift some weights. You'll get a lot better. Even better, it will slash your injury recovery time and perhaps an in-season cycle will keep you from that yearly in-season weight loss/nagging injuries.

 

It won't make Reddy or me into an MLB ballplayer, but it can certainly make a marginal MLB player into a highly coveted, one of the best in the league types of player. It can help an aging player be better than he was in his prime. They can make a minor leaguer into a usable MLB player.

[Rowand44]

Did anyone else vote on Deadspin? I'm interested to hear who you voted for.

[witesoxfan]

Did anyone else vote on Deadspin? I'm interested to hear who you voted for.

 

I did some voting. Pretty sure I'm the only person on the planet who voted yes for Ray Durham.

[Reddy]

There is nothing that can change onfield outcomes in the way that well-used steroids can. Greenies can increase your focus and energize you in a long season. Andro could give results that would be indistinguishable from what the average person would get by slightly improving their diet or exercise routine. Steroids could turn your shallow flies into homers and do so with little expertise in diet, exercise, or even steroid use -- just use enough of the right stuff, half-ass your post-cycle therapy, and lift some weights. You'll get a lot better. Even better, it will slash your injury recovery time and perhaps an in-season cycle will keep you from that yearly in-season weight loss/nagging injuries.

 

It won't make Reddy or me into an MLB ballplayer, but it can certainly make a marginal MLB player into a highly coveted, one of the best in the league types of player. It can help an aging player be better than he was in his prime. They can make a minor leaguer into a usable MLB player.

 

speak for yourself. I was damn good back when I played. I could've been the next David Eckstein!

Edited January 13, 2014 by Reddy

[oldsox]

Frank was just on The Jim Rome Show on Showtime. Good interview, talked a lot about steroids, mentioning McGuire, Bonds, Clemens, Sosa. He said those guys made a choice, giving up the HOF for stats. Youngest guy in the Hall.