Andy the Clown Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 BTW, Frank is down to needing 312 of the "remaining" 442 ballots. His percentage needed is down to 70.5% of remaining ballots. Time to get the champaign out of the coolers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 4, 2014 -> 09:23 PM) Except that he's guilty by association, and I have yet to see any valid association of Piazza with steroid users. He's guilty by most players talked about him doing it. Before the big Canseco stuff, players referred to PEDs as a Piazza milkshake. Right or wrong everyone talked aboutit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 4, 2014 -> 10:06 PM) Then I would love to hear your reasoning behind keeping Thome and Griffey out of the Hall of Fame. Who is keeping them out of the Hall of Fame? Griffey has never looked to be on the roids at all. And I guess Thome did gain a lot of weight from his early baseball cards, he just seemed like a big country boy, never super ripped and muscular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 4, 2014 -> 10:30 PM) Who is keeping them out of the Hall of Fame? Griffey has never looked to be on the roids at all. And I guess Thome did gain a lot of weight from his early baseball cards, he just seemed like a big country boy, never super ripped and muscular. Then why assume Piazza is? Giambi just looks like a big country boy too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 4, 2014 -> 10:38 PM) Then why assume Piazza is? Giambi just looks like a big country boy too. Ok fine. Then Thome or Giambi shouldn't get in before Bonds or Clemens either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I liked this Hall article from an older voter. Entertaining. http://www.golferswest.com/all-sports-opin...edictions-hold/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 4, 2014 -> 10:38 PM) Then why assume Piazza is? Giambi just looks like a big country boy too. It mostly has to do with players and their dicussions. Players talked about Piazza doing them but didn't talk about Thome doing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Wasn't there some article written years ago which pointed to the zits on Piazza's back as some proof he was juicing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 4, 2014 -> 09:37 PM) Blame Bud for that. From that era, if he looked like a steroid user and hit like a steroid user, then I would say he was a steroid user. Don't see why he should get the benefit of the doubt. So like Frank Thomas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 5, 2014 -> 09:36 AM) Wasn't there some article written years ago which pointed to the zits on Piazza's back as some proof he was juicing? Yeah, Murray Chass cited it in his latest "personal vendetta" blog: http://www.murraychass.com/?p=7013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 5, 2014 -> 09:36 AM) Wasn't there some article written years ago which pointed to the zits on Piazza's back as some proof he was juicing? Those can beside effects and some reporters did site it as evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabiness42 Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/newsst...ollecting_gizmo 130 ballots now 100% - Maddux 97.7 - Glavine 91.5 - F. Thomas 80.8 - Biggio ——————————— 72.3 - Piazza 63.8 - Bagwell 60.8 - Jack (The Jack) Morris 58.5 - Raines 42.3 - Bonds 41.5 - Clemens 40.0 - Schilling 32.3 - Mussina 24.6 - Trammell 24.6 - E. Martinez 23.1 - L. Smith 14.6 - Kent 13.1 - McGriff 11.5 - L. Walker 10.0 - McGwire 8.5 - S. Sosa 6.2 - R. Palmeiro 5.4 - Mattingly ——————————— 0.8 - P. Rose (Write-In) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 5, 2014 -> 12:09 PM) So like Frank Thomas? He looks like a college football player to me, not a baseball player who suddenly juiced and grew. But that's why Frank is 99.9% clean, not 100%, because of the era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasttriptotulsa Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10231471...all-fame-ballot ESPN unveils their ballots. Maddux and Frank were unaminous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Jan 6, 2014 -> 11:37 AM) http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10231471...all-fame-ballot ESPN unveils their ballots. Maddux and Frank were unaminous. I'm surprised Raines was left off by Olney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 The Colorado Rockies beat writer, Troy Renck, put Frank on his ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 If the initial list does not include the ESPN votes, Frank's at 139 for 150 (92.667%). If Renck's isn't included, it's up to 140 out of 151 (92.7%). If the second, overall percentage of remaining votes needed is 68.75%, 286 of 416. He's getting in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangercal Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 The 2014 HOF Ballot Collecting Gizmo! Updated: Jan.6 - 5:20 ~ 145 Full Ballots ~ (25.5% of vote ~ based on last year) 100% - Maddux 97.2 - Glavine 92.4 - F. Thomas 80.7 - Biggio ——————————— 71.0 - Piazza 63.4 - Bagwell 60.0 - Jack (The Jack) Morris 59.3 - Raines 42.1 - Bonds 41.4 - Clemens 39.3 - Schilling 31.0 - Mussina 25.5 - E. Martinez 24.1 - Trammell 24.1 - L. Smith 15.2 - Kent 13.8 - McGriff 10.3 - L. Walker 9.7 - McGwire 7.6 - S. Sosa 5.5 - R. Palmeiro 5.5 - Mattingly ——————————— 0.7 - P. Rose (Write-In) Thanks to Butch, Ilychs Morales, leokitty & Barnald for their help. As usual…send them in if you come across any ballots! itshappening.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Mike Piazza - career 63.6 WAR Curt Schilling - career 83.2 WAR and yes, WAR is position-adjusted. Neither of those players are HOFers. Piazza played before advanced stats were used for catchers, so he actually got that WAR on the strength of positive career value for defense, which most won't agree with. I also don't think Glavine is worthy of first ballot (64.3 WAR), especially when there are others on the ballot that are similar or better and totally out of consideration: Schilling (83.2 WAR), Mike Mussina (82.5) To get outside of simply using WAR to evaluate, we can look at things this way. Mussina - 9 times in the top 6 of Cy Young voting, 6 times in the top 5, 7 gold gloves, 270 career W, never started fewer than 24 games in a season following his rookie year, 5x All-Star, 3.42 ERA/1.10 WHIP in 130 postseason IP, 3.00 ERA in 18 World Series IP Schilling - 6x All-Star, 4x Cy Young Top 5, 2x Cy Young Top 2, 2x MVP Top 10, 4x MVP Top 15, 3x MLB wins leader, 4x MLB CG winner, 3x 300 strikeout seasons, 3x World Series champion, 2.23 postseason ERA over 133 IP, 2.06 WS ERA in 48 IP, bloody sock Glavine - 2x Cy Young winner, 6x Cy Young Top 5, 1 MVP Top 10, 3x MVP Top 15, 10x All-Star, 305 career W, 5x 20 W seasons (led league each time), 1x MLB CG leader, started at least 32 G 21 out of 22 seasons (does not include rookie and final seasons, other season was 29 starts), 1x WS champion, career 3.3 ERA in 218 postseason IP, 2.16 in 58 WS IP Lots of great stuff for Glavine, obviously -- his greatest accomplishments IMO are related to his longevity. Was he definitely better than both of those other guys? I'm not so sure. I don't mean to say that these things I listed are all great ways to measure success, but these can be used as other things with which to weigh for and against HOF status. Signs of dominance, if you will, since an unspoken part of being an HOFer seems to be that you must be one of the very best in the game at some point in time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 QUOTE (Jake @ Jan 6, 2014 -> 06:29 PM) Lots of great stuff for Glavine, obviously -- his greatest accomplishments IMO are related to his longevity. Was he definitely better than both of those other guys? I'm not so sure. I don't mean to say that these things I listed are all great ways to measure success, but these can be used as other things with which to weigh for and against HOF status. Signs of dominance, if you will, since an unspoken part of being an HOFer seems to be that you must be one of the very best in the game at some point in time One thing from your numbers to note though is winning the cy young twice. That means that there was a 6 year-ish stretch where Glavine was one of the top 6 pitchers and 2 years where he sat at the very top. Neither of the other guys were described by you as having won the CY award. That's a big deal. So it's not just the longevity, he's got 2 things going for him...an incredible peak combined with a degree of longevity equal to the other guys, if not in some sense greater (more AS appearances, for example). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) Piazza is the greatest hitting catcher of all-time, except for maybe Bench. The defensive rating on his WAR gave him the position adjustment but docked him defensively for his poor arm -- which was the only way they knew how to numerically measure catcher defense before the UZR/pitch framing era. It's very possible that he was not as bad as his caught-stealing rate suggests, we'll never know unless someone does some really rigorous film analysis. The case for Piazza is open and shut, IMO, if you just compare him to his contemporaries: http://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?play...1000898,1009334 He had a higher peak than everyone in that graph except Bench, and was surpassed in career value by Fisk only because Fisk played like eight more seasons. While the C defense component of those fWAR figures is certainly incomplete, the offense is environment-adjusted. If you think Yogi Berra was a HOFer, Piazza is an easy in. Here's the graph above but with Ivan Rodriguez added: http://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?play...1000898,1009334 Edited January 6, 2014 by Eminor3rd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 6, 2014 -> 05:39 PM) One thing from your numbers to note though is winning the cy young twice. That means that there was a 6 year-ish stretch where Glavine was one of the top 6 pitchers and 2 years where he sat at the very top. Neither of the other guys were described by you as having won the CY award. That's a big deal. So it's not just the longevity, he's got 2 things going for him...an incredible peak combined with a degree of longevity equal to the other guys, if not in some sense greater (more AS appearances, for example). That's true, for sure -- I suppose I only give limited credence to that award since it constantly has too much of a "popularity contest" influence that is the exact thing sullying the HOF process. Nonetheless, it is one of the best things he has going for him given how almost all advanced statistics find him to be a worse pitcher than the other two despite pitching much longer to accumulate more WAR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Jake @ Jan 6, 2014 -> 05:43 PM) That's true, for sure -- I suppose I only give limited credence to that award since it constantly has too much of a "popularity contest" influence that is the exact thing sullying the HOF process. Nonetheless, it is one of the best things he has going for him given how almost all advanced statistics find him to be a worse pitcher than the other two despite pitching much longer to accumulate more WAR This is why I don't like it when people use a lack of awards to hold a guy like Mussina down. The guys that do so are (typically, not necessarily you, Balta) the same guys that argue that MVP and Cy performances have to go to guys on winning teams, even if they weren't actually the "best player." I think WAR is a great tool for this type of career evaluation because it bakes in context in a much more objective manner -- which is the same thing you try to do by talking about awards, just in a much more precise way. Edited January 6, 2014 by Eminor3rd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 6, 2014 -> 06:42 PM) Piazza is the greatest hitting catcher of all-time, except for maybe Bench. The defensive rating on his WAR gave him the position adjustment but docked him defensively for his poor arm -- which was the only way they knew how to numerically measure catcher defense before the UZR/pitch framing era. It's very possible that he was not as bad as his caught-stealing rate suggests, we'll never know unless someone does some really rigorous film analysis. The case for Piazza is open and shut, IMO, if you just compare him to his contemporaries: http://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?play...1000898,1009334 He had a higher peak than everyone in that graph except Bench, and was surpassed in career value by Fisk only because Fisk played like eight more seasons. While the C defense component of those fWAR figures is certainly incomplete, the offense is environment-adjusted. If you think Yogi Berra was a HOFer, Piazza is an easy in. Here's the graph above but with Ivan Rodriguez added: http://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?play...1000898,1009334 ^ the whole "guilty by association" is absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Piazza used andro, which has always been a PED, but not always a banned substance. So yeah he did use PEDs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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