China's declared airspace

[Texsox]

Two U.S. Air Force B-52 aircraft on Monday flew into China's newly claimed air defense zone over the East China Sea without identifying themselves as China would have wanted, a U.S. official confirmed to CNN's Barbara Starr.

 

China declared the new air zone last week over islands that both China and Japan claim. The United States said it would continue with its own air operations in the region and not recognize China's new restrictions, which require aircraft entering the zone to identify themselves and file flight plans.

 

The B-52s, which flew from Guam and returned there without incident, were not armed because it was a training mission. The mission lasted for several hours, but the aircraft were in the newly declared Chinese air zone for about an hour, according to the U.S. official.

 

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Seems like we were pushing a confrontation. It's stuff like this that must keep a president up at night.

[Balta1701]

Seems like we were pushing a confrontation. It's stuff like this that must keep a president up at night.

It seems like CHina is pushing a confrontation as well.

[southsider2k5]

Seems like we were pushing a confrontation. It's stuff like this that must keep a president up at night.

 

If I declare your yard to be mine, and then you walk through it, are you pushing a confrontation?

 

[Texsox]

We never claimed the yard as ours.

 

Either way, whether it is necessary or not, it is a tough call to challenge them. Remember, China hasn't said it is a no fly zone, they just want planes to ID themselves to them.

[Jenksismyhero]

And screw an ally by acknowledging China's disputed ownership?

[southsider2k5]

We never claimed the yard as ours.

 

Either way, whether it is necessary or not, it is a tough call to challenge them. Remember, China hasn't said it is a no fly zone, they just want planes to ID themselves to them.

 

Japan does claim it.

[pettie4sox]

Paper tiger Chinese.

Edited November 26, 2013 by pettie4sox

[witesoxfan]

Paper tiger Chinese.

 

I do not believe that there is any reason to fear China, but in the grand scheme of things, I feel that China is about 1,000,000x scarier than North Korea.

[southsider2k5]

I do not believe that there is any reason to fear China, but in the grand scheme of things, I feel that China is about 1,000,000x scarier than North Korea.

 

I disagree in that NK has nothing to lose right now. They literally could do anything and it wouldn't surprise anyone.

 

China would probably put itself into revolution if it took to crazy of a step.

[Soxbadger]

I do not believe that there is any reason to fear China, but in the grand scheme of things, I feel that China is about 1,000,000x scarier than North Korea.

 

It depends on how you define scarey.

 

If you mean which country is more likely to make a random off the cuff decision that results in the death of thousands of people, its probably NK.

 

If you mean which country could conceivably actually threaten the US, its China.

[southsider2k5]

It depends on how you define scarey.

 

If you mean which country is more likely to make a random off the cuff decision that results in the death of thousands of people, its probably NK.

 

If you mean which country could conceivably actually threaten the US, its China.

 

At the end of the day, China's economy is propped up on US goodwill. If they start shooting at our planes, and we quit buying cheap Chinese crap in the process, the Chinese economy goes down the toilet, and probably takes the government with it. That is why China isn't scary.

[Balta1701]

At the end of the day, China's economy is propped up on US goodwill. If they start shooting at our planes, and we quit buying cheap Chinese crap in the process, the Chinese economy goes down the toilet, and probably takes the government with it. That is why China isn't scary.

Of course, "taking down the government" of a power armed with several hundred nuclear weapons might be scary for other reasons.

[Soxbadger]

At the end of the day, China's economy is propped up on US goodwill. If they start shooting at our planes, and we quit buying cheap Chinese crap in the process, the Chinese economy goes down the toilet, and probably takes the government with it. That is why China isn't scary.

 

Eh, the statement stands. China is the only country who could even attempt to threaten the US. Because if you think that the US economy is propped up by China, what do you think the result will be if the US can no longer borrow money from China.

 

Its just a different form of MAAD.

[Balta1701]

what do you think the result will be if the US can no longer borrow money from China.

A dramatic rise in the value of the Chinese currency relative to the U.S. dollar, which suddenly completely destroys China's export market and their industrial base, wrecking their economy and rapidly causing their government to fall.

 

China holds less than 10% of the U.S. debt. They hold 1/2 as much as the Social Security accounts do. They do so in order to keep the value of their currency from rising, which effectively is a huge jobs program for them. It's not to gain political influence here; in fact the U.S. would really like them to stop doing this.

 

If they were to sell them all simultaneously yes it would create something of a crisis, but not because they were selling US treasuries, because they'd be trying to sell so much - same thing as if, I dunno, 50% of the shares of publicly owned companies in the world were put up for sale simultaneously within a millisecond, the market wouldn't have the resources to adapt to it and that would cause a short crisis.

[Soxbadger]

A dramatic rise in the value of the Chinese currency relative to the U.S. dollar, which suddenly completely destroys China's export market and their industrial base, wrecking their economy and rapidly causing their government to fall.

 

China holds less than 10% of the U.S. debt. They hold 1/2 as much as the Social Security accounts do. They do so in order to keep the value of their currency from rising, which effectively is a huge jobs program for them. It's not to gain political influence here; in fact the U.S. would really like them to stop doing this.

 

If they were to sell them all simultaneously yes it would create something of a crisis, but not because they were selling US treasuries, because they'd be trying to sell so much - same thing as if, I dunno, 50% of the shares of publicly owned companies in the world were put up for sale simultaneously within a millisecond, the market wouldn't have the resources to adapt to it and that would cause a short crisis.

 

Not lending more money is different than selling securities. Its the difference between buying more Nike stock and selling Nike stock. If no one is buying Nike stock, Nike cant raise new capital, which means....

 

It has nothing to do with whether I sell my existing Nike stock, it has everything to do about whether I will pump more future money into the company.

 

Not to mention, this really isnt the point at all. The question was, which country can scare the US.

 

China has the size, it has the natural resources and it has the wealth. Some of these answers come off as "Rome never has to fear anyone", well even Rome fell.

[Y2HH]

Eh, the statement stands. China is the only country who could even attempt to threaten the US. Because if you think that the US economy is propped up by China, what do you think the result will be if the US can no longer borrow money from China.

 

Its just a different form of MAAD.

 

In order to critically injure the US, China would have to deliver a near suicide blow to itself. And visa-versa. It's a no win situation. So while they can, they have nothing to gain by doing so, and neither do we.

[southsider2k5]

Not lending more money is different than selling securities. Its the difference between buying more Nike stock and selling Nike stock. If no one is buying Nike stock, Nike cant raise new capital, which means....

 

It has nothing to do with whether I sell my existing Nike stock, it has everything to do about whether I will pump more future money into the company.

 

Not to mention, this really isnt the point at all. The question was, which country can scare the US.

 

China has the size, it has the natural resources and it has the wealth. Some of these answers come off as "Rome never has to fear anyone", well even Rome fell.

 

The big difference is Romes enemies weren't completely dependent on Rome. It's wealth is completely dependent on the US and the West. If that dries up, the country falls into depression and then revolution.

 

Even if you want to take it to an extreme, the US will more than make up for the lost of China by firing up its military production. Besides it isn't like the Fed isn't against creating money out of thin air anymore.

[southsider2k5]

A dramatic rise in the value of the Chinese currency relative to the U.S. dollar, which suddenly completely destroys China's export market and their industrial base, wrecking their economy and rapidly causing their government to fall.

 

China holds less than 10% of the U.S. debt. They hold 1/2 as much as the Social Security accounts do. They do so in order to keep the value of their currency from rising, which effectively is a huge jobs program for them. It's not to gain political influence here; in fact the U.S. would really like them to stop doing this.

 

If they were to sell them all simultaneously yes it would create something of a crisis, but not because they were selling US treasuries, because they'd be trying to sell so much - same thing as if, I dunno, 50% of the shares of publicly owned companies in the world were put up for sale simultaneously within a millisecond, the market wouldn't have the resources to adapt to it and that would cause a short crisis.

 

It would also destroy a massive chunk of Chinas wealth as the valuations plummetted.

[Balta1701]

In order to critically injure the US, China would have to deliver a near suicide blow to itself. And visa-versa. It's a no win situation. So while they can, they have nothing to gain by doing so, and neither do we.

The us wouldn't have to critically injure itself in this sense. It could just push harder on the inflation button. The country has survived that before.

[caulfield12]

Only about 17% of China's exports go to the US, although in a recent time period, that was #1, recently passing the European Union at 16%.

 

Then you have other ASEAN countries (10%), Japan (7%), South Korea and Australia trailing.

 

 

Essentially, the overall slowdown in the global economy since 2008 has been like the US or EU refusing to trade with China, in terms of its overall impact.

 

 

 

The other thing that's hard to do is just call all Chinese exports junk, as almost all of the Iphones are made/assembled in Guandong Province, for example...so you would have to have someone to differentiate what is "junk" and what is simply China's human resources/manufacturing advantage in the technology/electronic products supply chain.

Edited November 27, 2013 by caulfield12

[Texsox]

Japan does claim it.

 

Yes, they do. We don't.

[StrangeSox]

We're flying planes in it, though.

[Texsox]

If I declare your yard to be mine, and then you walk through it, are you pushing a confrontation?

 

 

We never claimed the yard as ours.

 

Either way, whether it is necessary or not, it is a tough call to challenge them. Remember, China hasn't said it is a no fly zone, they just want planes to ID themselves to them.

 

 

Japan does claim it.

 

 

Yes, they do. We don't.

 

To clarify.

[StrangeSox]

But we're a pretty important military ally of Japan.

[pettie4sox]

China won't f*** with Japan as long as we have Japan's back. This is all saber rattling.