Paul Konerko Returning to White Sox

[Eminor3rd]

And now that everyone knows the White Sox have themselves a mess of a roster, they can drop anything they'd have been willing to offer.

 

If you're playing cards and you reveal your cards to everyone else when they don't have to...that sort of hurts your ability to bet.

 

Don't get me wrong -- I don't think this is a good move. I'm just saying that it might not be as big a deal as it seems now. Looking at 25 man roster configurations, for example, is a futile exercise on Dec 4th.

[Balta1701]

Surely last year we were going to do everything we were going to do with every bargaining chip on a salary. If there were no deals to be had for Dunn and Alexei back then....that were wildly good for us........then I'm not under the impression that landscape was going to change wildly now.

 

It may be PK, a catcher.... another tweak (Bacon?)...and we're done.

No, last year we could have waited on these guys to see if an improved deal would come along. We weren't forced to move the guys, at the worst they were dead losses. Frankly, it was starting to look like the market for Dunn could actually improve if we didn't show everyone our cards already.

[Princess Dye]

Also, now is a time to chime in that PH is also a need. There was absolutely no one worthwhile to grab a bat in the most intense late inning situations

 

And now there is.

[Balta1701]

Don't get me wrong -- I don't think this is a good move. I'm just saying that it might not be as big a deal as it seems now. Looking at 25 man roster configurations, for example, is a futile exercise on Dec 4th.

We're now stuck between one bad decision, selling low on a guy paid decently in order to clear a roster spot, or going into the season with a poorly set up bench. Neither of these are nice options.

[Dick Allen]

OK. So you are in favor of rushing players into the lineup and keep them in while struggling. It seemed like you were saying the opposite. That you should not rush them into the lineup and play them when they struggle.

 

He's saying giving this guy occassional breaks is stupid. If the Sox don't give Alexei occassional breaks, like this sets them up to do with Abreu, that's stupid. Everything is stupid.

 

Don't stop him. He's on a roll.

[Princess Dye]

No, last year we could have waited on these guys to see if an improved deal would come along. We weren't forced to move the guys, at the worst they were dead losses. Frankly, it was starting to look like the market for Dunn could actually improve if we didn't show everyone our cards already.

 

 

I guess I see your point, but the day we need leverage again you just put Robin V. on a mic to someone stating that Dunn is in the running for the LF job. Leverage reborn.

 

I like that Hahn talks through stuff. I dont think that he'd say anything and let anything out that totally kills some negotiation he is in right now. That is just entirely a guess on your part...that.. that is what's happening right now.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Jose Paniagua

[Balta1701]

I guess I see your point, but the day we need leverage again you just put Robin V. on a mic to someone stating that Dunn is in the running for the LF job. Leverage reborn.

And if we say Konerko is the primary backup for Alexei the remaining GM's around the league will believe that too right?

 

Heck, we may as well use Dunn as the primary backup OF just for comedy. It'd be a fitting tribute to this signing.

[Eminor3rd]

Also, now is a time to chime in that PH is also a need. There was absolutely no one worthwhile to grab a bat in the most intense late inning situations

 

And now there is.

 

But at what cost? Nearly every team in the league has moved to utilizing the DH as a way to utilize depth effectively. The early innovators of this (A's, Rays) have seen great success, and there are so few monster DH bats left in the game. That roster spot is valuable -- especially if it allows some younger guys to get the PT they need.

[Texsox]

Especially since the Cuban season is 90 games long.

 

Exactly. And doesn't Paulie just have to outplay Dunn for more playing time? With both their histories, it could happen.

 

Taking the names out of the equation, if a team announced they were planning on carrying a backup DH, it would sound crazy.

[nickofypres]

#thereturn

[Eminor3rd]

No, last year we could have waited on these guys to see if an improved deal would come along. We weren't forced to move the guys, at the worst they were dead losses. Frankly, it was starting to look like the market for Dunn could actually improve if we didn't show everyone our cards already.

 

I know. I'm not sure what else to say other than to reiterate my last post. Also, the only thing Hahn needs to do to regain his leverage in trading Dunn is show that he's willing to go into the season with a poorly constructed bench. Which, it seems like he's willing to do. You can;t call someone's bluff if there's no bluff being made.

[Balta1701]

Exactly. And doesn't Paulie just have to outplay Dunn for more playing time? With both their histories, it could happen.

That'd be equally silly.

 

Dunn got off to a terrible start for the first month last year then found a groove in May when he started swinging for the fences again. He was homering enough that you could conceivably see a team being willing to take on part of his contract at the deadline. He didn't hit well enough to make it worth it for the Sox to take the loss on his contract yet...but he was getting closer.

 

Do that this year...Konerko takes Dunn's at bats starting in late April, and there goes any chance we had of trading him because he's now consigned to the bench while the Captain gets the at bats he deserves.

[Dick Allen]

No, last year we could have waited on these guys to see if an improved deal would come along. We weren't forced to move the guys, at the worst they were dead losses. Frankly, it was starting to look like the market for Dunn could actually improve if we didn't show everyone our cards already.

What evidence do you have that the market for Dunn was "improving" and is no longer there because of this signing?

 

Think about it please. "Yeah we will take Dunn if you eat half his contract. Wait, you signed Konerko? Forget it." The White Sox were never going to get anything of substance for Adam Dunn, and it hasn't gone down farther because of this.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Dick Allen

[Texsox]

That'd be equally silly.

 

Dunn got off to a terrible start for the first month last year then found a groove in May when he started swinging for the fences again. He was homering enough that you could conceivably see a team being willing to take on part of his contract at the deadline. He didn't hit well enough to make it worth it for the Sox to take the loss on his contract yet...but he was getting closer.

 

Do that this year...Konerko takes Dunn's at bats starting in late April, and there goes any chance we had of trading him because he's now consigned to the bench while the Captain gets the at bats he deserves.

 

So keep playing Dunn, no matter what, hoping he can be traded. Why not just play the hot bat and trade that one?

[Princess Dye]

And if we say Konerko is the primary backup for Alexei the remaining GM's around the league will believe that too right?

 

 

Dunn in outfield has 1107 career games from what I'm looking at, so no need to call my idea the dumbest idea on the face of the earth. It's an option. The White Sox have used him there a couple games each year he's been here..obviously it hasnt been their need for him.

 

But since we're talking about flexibility, I'm stating what we have at our disposal. Can be used as a bluff if need be - but again, your entire point even assumes there are passable Dunn deals waiting for us right now........

 

so before we even go into any of what you're arguing lets (1) see that there's even a deal to be had for Dunn (2) see what the 25-man even ...is.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Jose Paniagua

[Marty34]

We're now stuck between one bad decision, selling low on a guy paid decently in order to clear a roster spot, or going into the season with a poorly set up bench. Neither of these are nice options.

 

Much to do about nothing. The likeliest outcome of this is Dunn is gone before spring training the next likeliest outcome is that Dunn and Konerko are both gone by the middle of May.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Marty34

[Balta1701]

So keep playing Dunn, no matter what, hoping he can be traded. Why not just play the hot bat and trade that one?

Are you going to trade Paul Konerko mid-season in a "farewell year"? That only works if you drop the names. On top of that...he has full no-trade protection as a 10-5 player. The only way he gets off the roster is the disabled list.

[ILMOU]

The logjam is Dunn/Konerko/Abreu.

 

The Sox aren't going to trade Abreu. The aren't going to trade Konerko, they probably would try to trade Dunn, but where exactly was the leverage BEFORE Konerko came back?

 

Please, bring back some logic.

 

The hopeful scenario, since we're paying the fat guy anyway, is that in a contract year, Dunn becomes attractive enough to a contender, for the last two months salary of his deal, to land us a middling prospect and/or save us 4-6 million, or something lower if that sweetens the prospect at all. Not much at all, granted, but the Konerko deal could wind up costing ~7 million plus, if we feel compelled to purely dump Donkey this offseason to get Paulie his AB's. I suppose there's a chance Dunn looks more attractive to suitors in late July by only facing RHP. He has a chance to be that kind of extra PH bat that replaces a mediocre bullpen spot on a 25 man playoff roster. Ala Matt Stairs or the Gentleman Slugger.

 

Not my money, and not that big a deal. Oh well.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Stan Bahnsen

[LittleHurt05]

But at what cost? Nearly every team in the league has moved to utilizing the DH as a way to utilize depth effectively. The early innovators of this (A's, Rays) have seen great success, and there are so few monster DH bats left in the game. That roster spot is valuable -- especially if it allows some younger guys to get the PT they need.

 

That's my other issue with this signing. The DH spot could be used to give guys like Avisail or Tank a day of rest, but keep their bats in the lineup. Now you can't.

[Princess Dye]

Basically what Balta is falling into here are several "appeals to probability."

 

-- Because this move can mess up the 25-man roster, thus: it has messed up the 25-man roster.

 

-- Because this move can mess up a potentially existing Dunn trade, thus: it has messed up a Dunn trade.

 

 

 

The fact that we dont know the roster yet, and .....the fact that we have no rumors even of teams badly wanting Dunn... make this all Bad Logic.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Jose Paniagua

[Texsox]

Are you going to trade Paul Konerko mid-season in a "farewell year"? That only works if you drop the names. On top of that...he has full no-trade protection as a 10-5 player. The only way he gets off the roster is the disabled list.

 

Are you finally going to be able to trade Dunn? The odds of trading either one is low. The only chance is if one is playing at a very high level. I'd rather bet on either/or than Dunn only.

 

And Sox fans wouldn't mind seeing Konerko head off to a contender at the trade deadline if the team is out of contention.

[Balta1701]

Are you finally going to be able to trade Dunn? The odds of trading either one is low. The only chance is if one is playing at a very high level. I'd rather bet on either/or than Dunn only.

 

And Sox fans wouldn't mind seeing Konerko head off to a contender at the trade deadline if the team is out of contention.

Assuming the team is out of contention...yes, if this deal didn't happen, I think they'd finally move Dunn at the deadline, probably saving a couple million dollars on the deal.

[Dick Allen]

If Konerko didn't come back, I would put money on whoever the 25th man was, would either be deemed a wasted roster spot or a guy who should be playing everyday in Charlotte. No matter what, there would be complaints.

[Marty34]

That'd be equally silly.

 

Dunn got off to a terrible start for the first month last year then found a groove in May when he started swinging for the fences again. He was homering enough that you could conceivably see a team being willing to take on part of his contract at the deadline. He didn't hit well enough to make it worth it for the Sox to take the loss on his contract yet...but he was getting closer.

 

Do that this year...Konerko takes Dunn's at bats starting in late April, and there goes any chance we had of trading him because he's now consigned to the bench while the Captain gets the at bats he deserves.

 

Today, the White Sox chose Konerko over Dunn which should make Dunn's contract inconsequential. That's the real price of bringing Konerko back. As long as they are willing to pay that, I'm ok with it.

[Balta1701]

Basically what Balta is falling into here are several "appeals to probability."

 

-- Because this move can mess up the 25-man roster, thus: it has messed up the 25-man roster.

 

-- Because this move can mess up a potentially existing Dunn trade, thus: it has messed up a Dunn trade.

 

The fact that we dont know the roster yet, and .....the fact that we have no rumors even of teams badly wanting Dunn... make this all Bad Logic.

I'd also add that I have zero trust in this team's ability to use young players effectively or in ways that are best for their development. If you leave this staff an obvious way to screw with a young player, they'll do it. This organization is extremely consistent in that regard.