Paul Konerko Returning to White Sox

[southsider2k5]

I find it amazing there are people who actually think Konerko is going to take significant at bats away from Abreu. Or even more hilarious, that they think Konerko will take over starting time if Abreu struggles in April/May.

 

There is no foundation for this in reality. We are not talking about a Brent Morel, or even a Brian Anderson here - this is a guy with a $63M contract. There is zero chance he sits in 2013. He'll play at least 130 game, probably more like 130-140, maybe even 150. Konerko's being on the team has zero effect on that - that is what would have happened either way.

 

There are plenty of good reasons to dislike the PK14 signing. Irrational fears about benching a guy they just signed for $63M is not one of them.

 

Thank you.

[witesoxfan]

I do think it's hilarious at one point we refused to bring back Jim Thome because we wanted a "rotating DH" and now we'll enter 2014 with two legitimate DHs on our roster.

 

I'm not going to complain too much about bringing Paulie back, but I seriously hate when people say "it's the 25th man on the roster so who cares" to justify the move. I'm sorry, but even the last guy on the bench has a role to play and can impact the team's W/L regardless of what his WAR might be.

 

Context comes in play here. For example, if Jordan Danks can get to one more ball than Viciedo can late in a game he can have a significant impact outcome of that particular game. The same can go for a pinch runner with elite speed or a backup with tons of defensive flexibility. These guys can have a big impact on close games and how teams do in those games can ultimately make or break a season. Bringing back Konerko limits what our bench will be capable of. Maybe it doesn't matter in this particular season, but if we're legitimately trying to win this move makes [no] sense IMO.

 

And I agree 100% with that.

[witesoxfan]

I'm not saying "becomes a starter". Pushes Abreu down to 400-ish PA's? I could totally believe that and that would be almost as dumb as putting Chris Sale in the bullpen was.

 

You changed the game there to say that something has never happened that isn't what I'm fearing. Sending Abreu to the bench 2-3 times a week is what I'm afraid of and it's exactly what I'm expecting.

 

400-ish PAs is 100 games. Do you really, truly, honestly, 100% believe that Konerko and Dunn themselves are going to keep Abreu out of 40% of the team's games?

[southsider2k5]

The White Sox have been more than happy to screw around with "Key long-term players" in the past. Repeatedly. Viciedo's callups and position shifts are on that list.

 

More so is the Chris Sale bullpen garbage. Not just sticking him there for 2011, but going so far as to try to push him back there in 2012 only a month into making him a starter.

 

We tried to put the most important long-term piece for the organization in the bullpen forever because of a tired arm, he publicly said "No" and forced his way back into the rotation where he nearly pitched the team to the playoffs that season leading to the remarkable circumstance of a pitcher publicly disagreeing with statements by his manager about how he would be used...and I'm supposed to just trust that we'll treat this piece right because he's an important long term piece and it'd be completely insane to screw around with that important of a long-term piece...which we have a record of doing.

 

Except the "putting him in the bullpen" thing might be the thing that got him into the organization. A lot of the speculation around his fall down the draft board was due to what were perceived as his draft demands for money. The White Sox came up with a creative solution that allowed them to bring Chris Sale into the organization, AND not have to pay him a huge signing bonus. In exchange they agree do ram him through the system, get him to the majors, and start his money clock much sooner than if he had been a traditional bonus baby. There is a pretty good chance if the Sox don't come up with that plan, Chris Sale isn't a White Sox today.

[Balta1701]

Except the "putting him in the bullpen" thing might be the thing that got him into the organization. A lot of the speculation around his fall down the draft board was due to what were perceived as his draft demands for money. The White Sox came up with a creative solution that allowed them to bring Chris Sale into the organization, AND not have to pay him a huge signing bonus. In exchange they agree do ram him through the system, get him to the majors, and start his money clock much sooner than if he had been a traditional bonus baby. There is a pretty good chance if the Sox don't come up with that plan, Chris Sale isn't a White Sox today.

No where did I disagree with putting him in the bullpen in 2010 when he was drafted. Not in any spot. That made a ton of sense.

 

In 2011 I vehemently disagreed with putting him in the bullpen and I stand by that being a terrible decision. Then compounding it by trying to put him back in the bullpen in 2012 when he experienced a dead arm a month into the season...almost certainly as a consequence of having been in the bullpen in 2011 where his innings were low...that was so dumb that even Chris Sale disagreed with it in front of the media.

 

Do you think Chris Sale belongs in the bullpen right now? Because otherwise you're agreeing that "Putting Chris Sale in the bullpen in 2012 was moronic and f***ing around with the most important guy in the organization unnecessarily".

[southsider2k5]

No where did I disagree with putting him in the bullpen in 2010 when he was drafted. Not in any spot. That made a ton of sense.

 

In 2011 I vehemently disagreed with putting him in the bullpen and I stand by that being a terrible decision. Then compounding it by trying to put him back in the bullpen in 2012 when he experienced a dead arm a month into the season...almost certainly as a consequence of having been in the bullpen in 2011 where his innings were low...that was so dumb that even Chris Sale disagreed with it in front of the media.

 

Do you think Chris Sale belongs in the bullpen right now? Because otherwise you're agreeing that "Putting Chris Sale in the bullpen in 2012 was moronic and f***ing around with the most important guy in the organization unnecessarily".

 

2011 was based on the idea that they thought the roster construction of 2010 could win in 2011. That had Sale in the pen.

 

2012 was a reaction based on an injury. It isn't like they woke up one morning and said Hey how can we f*** with Chris Sale? This is a franchise that is about the most successful in baseball in managing injuries and keeping pitchers healthy and productive. At that point, they thought that this might be the way to keep Sale going. It isn't even like this hasn't been done before. John Smoltz? Dennis Eckersley? It happens.

 

I get the team wanting to be conservative with Chris Sale. I also admire them for all sitting down to talk this out and figuring out that they made a mistake and fixing it. I am not about to take each step of the process and spin it in the worst possible way to justify paranoia today.

 

 

[Balta1701]

2011 was based on the idea that they thought the roster construction of 2010 could win in 2011. That had Sale in the pen.

 

2012 was a reaction based on an injury. It isn't like they woke up one morning and said Hey how can we f*** with Chris Sale? This is a franchise that is about the most successful in baseball in managing injuries and keeping pitchers healthy and productive. At that point, they thought that this might be the way to keep Sale going. It isn't even like this hasn't been done before. John Smoltz? Dennis Eckersley? It happens.

 

I get the team wanting to be conservative with Chris Sale. I also admire them for all sitting down to talk this out and figuring out that they made a mistake and fixing it. I am not about to take each step of the process and spin it in the worst possible way to justify paranoia today.

I understand the 2011 notion, but you're 100% admitting that they were willing to do the wrong thing with a player, to screw around with the most important long-term piece in the organization at that time, putting his health, development, and career at risk in order to do something they judged to be more important at the time.

 

And Smoltz and Eck aren't the comparisons there...because they started for a decade before they were put in the bullpen. Jonathan Papelbon, Daniel Bard, and Joba Chamberlain are the comparisons. Those are the guys who were put in the bullpen for a time at the start of their careers, didn't get their arms stretched out, and never left. Only 1 of them had a moderately solid career. That's what we were aiming for in 2011-2012, so don't tell me we don't mess around with or do things that hurt guys' careers.

[southsider2k5]

I understand the 2011 notion, but you're 100% admitting that they were willing to do the wrong thing with a player, to screw around with the most important long-term piece in the organization at that time, putting his health, development, and career at risk in order to do something they judged to be more important at the time.

 

And Smoltz and Eck aren't the comparisons there...because they started for a decade before they were put in the bullpen. Jonathan Papelbon, Daniel Bard, and Joba Chamberlain are the comparisons. Those are the guys who were put in the bullpen for a time at the start of their careers, didn't get their arms stretched out, and never left. Only 1 of them had a moderately solid career. That's what we were aiming for in 2011-2012, so don't tell me we don't mess around with or do things that hurt guys' careers.

 

You sound like a conspiracy theorist here. Everything is completely out of context.

[SoxAce]

FYI: Konerko's talking on MLB Network right now. (Hot Stove)

[southsider2k5]

FYI: Konerko's talking on MLB Network right now. (Hot Stove)

 

Giving a big push to Hawk for the HOF.

[LittleHurt05]

The paranoia of some Sox fans astounds me.

 

It's not paranoia. It's a lack of faith in an organization that has made many bad personnel decisions and has not been very successful recently. From Mackowiak in CF, to letting Ozzie keep Tank in the minors, Kotsay/Thome, Sale back to the bullpen, Santiago as closer, etc. Add to the fact that the owner forced this move upon the young, new GM and I don't like it.

 

The Sox don't owe Konerko a damn thing, as his 16,000 square foot in Scottsdale can attest to. I don't buy that such loyalty moves help in free agency either, money talks, that's what matters. The Marlins treat their players like crap, yet they managed to sign the second best catcher available.

[southsider2k5]

It's not paranoia. It's a lack of faith in an organization that has made many bad personnel decisions and has not been very successful recently. From Mackowiak in CF, to letting Ozzie keep Tank in the minors, Kotsay/Thome, Sale back to the bullpen, Santiago as closer, etc. Add to the fact that the owner forced this move upon the young, new GM and I don't like it.

 

The Sox don't owe Konerko a damn thing, as his 16,000 square foot in Scottsdale can attest to. I don't buy that such loyalty moves help in free agency either, money talks, that's what matters. The Marlins treat their players like crap, yet they managed to sign the second best catcher available.

 

It is paranoia, because those aren't the only moves the team has ever made, but those are the ones that are focused on and rehashed.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

It's not paranoia. It's a lack of faith in an organization that has made many bad personnel decisions and has not been very successful recently. From Mackowiak in CF, to letting Ozzie keep Tank in the minors, Kotsay/Thome, Sale back to the bullpen, Santiago as closer, etc. Add to the fact that the owner forced this move upon the young, new GM and I don't like it.

 

The Sox don't owe Konerko a damn thing, as his 16,000 square foot in Scottsdale can attest to. I don't buy that such loyalty moves help in free agency either, money talks, that's what matters. The Marlins treat their players like crap, yet they managed to sign the second best catcher available.

It is paranoia because none of those examples is the slightest bit like Abreu.

 

You want a good comp? Because there is one on the team - his name is Adam Dunn. Dunn was signed as a free agent 1B/DH for 4/56. Abreu was signed as a free agent 1B/DH for 6/68, so even more years and money. Now, Dunn started 2011 OK, had his illness and surgery, then came back terrible. Stayed terrible throughout the year - like epic-level terrible. And it wasn't until very late in the season they even started to cut back his play, and that was by just a little bit. And he still came back as a starter the next year.

 

That is what you should use as the analog here. Abreu would need to be epically, historically bad, and even then his playing time won't diminish much until very late in the year.

 

[witesoxfan]

It is paranoia because none of those examples is the slightest bit like Abreu.

 

You want a good comp? Because there is one on the team - his name is Adam Dunn. Dunn was signed as a free agent 1B/DH for 4/56. Abreu was signed as a free agent 1B/DH for 6/68, so even more years and money. Now, Dunn started 2011 OK, had his illness and surgery, then came back terrible. Stayed terrible throughout the year - like epic-level terrible. And it wasn't until very late in the season they even started to cut back his play, and that was by just a little bit. And he still came back as a starter the next year.

 

That is what you should use as the analog here. Abreu would need to be epically, historically bad, and even then his playing time won't diminish much until very late in the year.

 

If he came out and hit .100 for the first 2 months of the season, I think they'd consider sending him to AAA for a short period of time at that point. I don't foresee that happening.

[NorthSideSox72]

If he came out and hit .100 for the first 2 months of the season, I think they'd consider sending him to AAA for a short period of time at that point. I don't foresee that happening.

Yeah, that's why I said he'd need to be epically bad. And even then I think they've give him a little longer than that. Barring that or injury, he's playing 130+ games. And even if he's demoted, he's still playing full time, but again he'd have to be REALLY bad.

 

[witesoxfan]

Yeah, that's why I said he'd need to be epically bad. And even then I think they've give him a little longer than that. Barring that or injury, he's playing 130+ games. And even if he's demoted, he's still playing full time, but again he'd have to be REALLY bad.

 

The ultimate kicker in me not caring about this move is that both the organization and Konerko himself have said he's going to be a part time player and Konerko said he would not have come back if he were going to be a full time player. He is not going to play a lot.

[LittleHurt05]

It is paranoia because none of those examples is the slightest bit like Abreu.

 

You want a good comp? Because there is one on the team - his name is Adam Dunn. Dunn was signed as a free agent 1B/DH for 4/56. Abreu was signed as a free agent 1B/DH for 6/68, so even more years and money. Now, Dunn started 2011 OK, had his illness and surgery, then came back terrible. Stayed terrible throughout the year - like epic-level terrible. And it wasn't until very late in the season they even started to cut back his play, and that was by just a little bit. And he still came back as a starter the next year.

 

That is what you should use as the analog here. Abreu would need to be epically, historically bad, and even then his playing time won't diminish much until very late in the year.

 

Who was the Sox legend in 2011 that was also a left-handed hitting 1B/DH just like Adam Dunn on the roster? Were there 3 guys on the 2011 roster that could only play 1b/DH?

[NorthSideSox72]

Who was the Sox legend in 2011 that was also a left-handed hitting 1B/DH just like Adam Dunn on the roster? Were there 3 guys on the 2011 roster that could only play 1b/DH?

I don't even know what that first sentence means.

 

Second sentence is irrelevant. I know you'd rather think Abreu fits in the category of Santiago/Anderson and some others, but he just doesn't. Look at Dunn in 2011. He was so bad, that really just about any bat would have been better - and they kept playing him most of the season anyway. There is your example.

 

[LittleHurt05]

I don't even know what that first sentence means.

 

Second sentence is irrelevant. I know you'd rather think Abreu fits in the category of Santiago/Anderson and some others, but he just doesn't. Look at Dunn in 2011. He was so bad, that really just about any bat would have been better - and they kept playing him most of the season anyway. There is your example.

 

It means there was no one similar to take away at-bats from Dunn, so it's not a valid comparison. You had two 1b/DH guys, one lefty and one righty. Now you have three 1b/DH guys, one lefty and two righties.

[witesoxfan]

It means there was no one similar to take away at-bats from Dunn, so it's not a valid comparison. You had two 1b/DH guys, one lefty and one righty. Now you have three 1b/DH guys, one lefty and two righties.

 

By June, there sure was. Anybody would have been an upgrade over Dunn at that point in time.

[Chicago White Sox]

Well, Konerko did put up a .900+ OPS last year vs. LHP, and he keeps Dunn from hitting against many LHP. It's not like he is totally worthless.

Not saying he's totally worthless, but when your team only has four guys on the bench (which is what we traditionally go with), you want more flexibility out of the three guys who aren't the backup catcher.

 

And quite simply, my biggest beef with bringing back Konerko back is we could use that roster spot on a guy that hits LHP very well AND can play multiple positions defensively. And what's funny is the guy most likely to get the boot as a result of the Konerko decision is a guy who has a career .829 OPS against LHP and can play all over the field (including 3B where he would have a natural platoon partner). I know Keppinger sucked balls last year, but I honestly think he can be a useful role player if used correctly and provide more overall value to the team than Konerko.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

And I agree 100% with that.

There you go. That's the whole crux of the matter .We're not lrgitimately trying to win in 2014 after being told repeatedly we were.

[witesoxfan]

There you go. That's the whole crux of the matter .We're not lrgitimately trying to win in 2014 after being told repeatedly we were.

 

They have to say that though. When I see a GM say "we are going to try and re-tool so be can build from within while trying to win," I read it as retooling/rebuilding. Of course they're going to go out and give their best effort and try and win every game, but it's just not a very good team at this point.

 

I'm not happy Konerko's back, but really, I could not care less because, as I've said, I think this is overall a rather meaningless move. If I believed they were going to be competitive and they did this, I'd be just as upset as quite a few others on here.

[LittleHurt05]

By June, there sure was. Anybody would have been an upgrade over Dunn at that point in time.

 

Huh? That has nothing do with what I'm trying to say.

 

Had the Sox signed Jim Thome as a JR "loyalty" move two weeks after signing Dunn, that would be a more similar situation to signing PK right now.

[Vance Law]

Sanchez or Greene because they aren't taking away at-bats from the 2nd most important player in the franchise's future.

 

Adam Dunn?