Paul Konerko Returning to White Sox

[Y2Jimmy0]

I think this will cut into Dunn's time far more than it will Abreu's, but I guess that's just opinion. We'll have to see how that plays out.

 

 

 

That makes sense, and I understand it from that aspect.

 

Like I said, I'm not crazy about this move either, but it's small. Like you, I think it stunts the development of some unknown. It's likely that the unknown is someone like Brent Lillibridge or Tyler Greene, but it could also be Carlos Quentin too. It's incredibly frustrating because if the team is serious about winning, they don't go into the season with 3 exclusive 1B/DHs but rather sign or trade for a guy like Craig Gentry (who I seem to remember mashed lefties and was also great defensively; if I'm mistaken, just think lefty masher) who does have added versatility. If they're serious about rebuilding, why are they bringing back a guy who is almost 40? It doesn't make sense other than as a gesture of respect and loyalty, which seems silly.

 

Still, if done right, I don't see it being totally unfeasible that this move actually benefits the Sox and helps them win more games. At this point, in theory, you have a perfect platoon at DH. No, it is not the ideal spot for a platoon, but it will get those two out of the lineups when they should be out of the lineups, so it's not inconceivable that they could ultimately get like 3 WAR out of the DH spot and 8 WAR total between 1B and DH, which would be an incredible improvement. Add an upgrade at 3B and C, even if marginal upgrades, and the Sox almost look like a team that will battle for 2nd or 3rd.

 

Ultimately, I think it's a nil move. I don't think it's going to have much of an effect either way. That's why I really don't care.

 

I think it's worse to do it on a bad team. The Sox aren't contending for anything next year. I'd rather give Konerko's at-bats to someone else. It just doesn't make any sense. People say, " OH. They are going to be bad anyways, so what is the big deal? ". The big deal is that it is stupid and unnecessary.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

The trouble with "improving the bench right now" is that it actually doesn't.

 

First of all, aside from Gillaspie, our entire bench is RH. Furthermore, outside of De Aza and Dunn, there aren't lefties in the lineup.

 

In other words, if paul konerko is pinch hitting late in the game...it doesn't improve the matchup unless he pinch hits for Dunn after a lefty is brought in.

 

Furthermore, it was noted to me in the other thread how hesitant the White Sox are to use their backups at the catcher's position when they only have 1 backup. We've all seen this through the years, usually the guy who starts the game finishes the game and only rarely do they sub in.

 

Now, the "one backup" state that we have for catcher is the same situation 5 different positions are in. If its an RBI situation, outside of 1b, 2b and 3b, Konerko pinch hitting leaves no one on the bench capable of playing those positions if an injury happens. If you stick Leury in CF in the 7th inning after Konerko pinch hits and then Viciedo turns an ankle or something like that, we get to see Keppinger in LF. The proper reaction to that would be to be even more hesitant to pinch hit for anyone because there is only 1 backup for the entire OF and SS positions.

 

On top of that...what happens if, for example, Viciedo or Garcia get hit by a ball and need 2-3 days off and legitimately can't go? On those days...there are zero backups on the entire roster. You can't pinch hit for Leury or anyone else because you don't have a single backup for those positions.

 

Basically, they need to cut Keppinger or Dunn to make this work, because otherwise it's a trainwreck, and any team the white sox approach in a trade should knwo that.

I really don't think Dick cares ( and I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he understands concepts involved in the use of the roster) so your lengthy explanation is a waste. He's just being contrary.

[Balta1701]

2 things. 1: does Danks have options left? 2: what do we do with Keppinger? Obviously trading him is best case scenario but who would be interested? I suppose the clerk at the liquor store might give up a twelver but would the clerk take on that salary?

Any smart organization would look at the white sox roster and think there's a better chance Keppinger just gets released and the White Sox eat his entire contract after Konerko was signed. Just like with Dunn, if I had any interest in him before this signing, the price I'd pay just went down, not up.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Because despite your arguments that it doesn't hurt the team you know in your heart it was the wrong decision on based on the rebuild/retool that has to be given every consideration.

 

 

My post was in reference to baltas post, as in I'm not sure why the feeling he was having about the Sox competing has now gone away after upgrading the DH position.

[Texsox]

No, I realize that Abreu will get the majority of playing time. But if he starts 120 games instead of 140 simply because Konerko wants one more go around is silly and could stunt Abreu's development and adjustment to the majors.

 

And if Abreu is forced to play because there is not a decent backup that too can stunt his development. He has never had more than 400 ABs in a season. Now you are asking him to make over 600. I'm not a math guy but that looks like his regular season and another half season on top. Having a competent back up seems like insurance to bring him along at whatever pace necessary. If that means Paulie sits, it has been made clear Paulie will sit. If that means Paulie has to play some at 1st, well there is an ok option.

 

As I see this, more and more, I see it as the team wanting flexibillity to do what is best for Abreu and to protect their biggest investment. This season isn't a contending year, so protect your assets. And one of the top assets is Abreu.

 

[Dick Allen]

Any smart organization would look at the white sox roster and think there's a better chance Keppinger just gets released and the White Sox eat his entire contract after Konerko was signed. Just like with Dunn, if I had any interest in him before this signing, the price I'd pay just went down, not up.

So you are saying Keppinger and Dunn could have brought back something useful before Konerko's decision, but not now?

 

This has no effect on either's value if they are actually coveted by other teams.

[Balta1701]

That kind of stuff doesn't happen very often. It could happen, and is a reason why this isn't exactly ideal. Why don't you see what the White Sox actual roster looks like when they actually have to play the games before complaining about what happens if Garcia has to miss 2 games because he gets hit by a pitch. The Sox said they can make it work. The Indians made it work with the same type of guy.

They didn't have a regular DH other than him. Santana was DH in 47 games. Giambi DH'd in 58 games. 17 games for swisher, 20 games for Reynolds, 17 games for Raburn.

 

Giambi filled Adam Dunn's role on that team. We're carrying an extra one of those.

[Balta1701]

So you are saying Keppinger and Dunn could have brought back something useful before Konerko's decision, but not now?

 

This has no effect on either's value if they are actually coveted by other teams.

If I were considering taking on say, $7 million of Adam Dunn's remaining contract in the position of an opposing GM, yesterday I'd drop that to $5 million, no question. The White Sox just surrendered bargaining power. Their roster doesn't work right now and they're forced to make a move.

[Dick Allen]

If I were considering taking on say, $7 million of Adam Dunn's remaining contract in the position of an opposing GM, yesterday I'd drop that to $5 million, no question. The White Sox just surrendered bargaining power. Their roster doesn't work right now and they're forced to make a move.

It's a good thing they haven't signed a starting pitcher then. The same logic would mean Q or Santiago or even Sale's value should go down if the Sox have an extra starter. And even if it did cost the Sox an extra $2 million to dump one because of this, which is a longshot at best, so what? I would also guess if someone was will to take $7 million of Dunn's deal, he wouldn't be on the roster anymore.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Dick Allen

[Texsox]

If I were considering taking on say, $7 million of Adam Dunn's remaining contract in the position of an opposing GM, yesterday I'd drop that to $5 million, no question. The White Sox just surrendered bargaining power. Their roster doesn't work right now and they're forced to make a move.

 

I guess I've missed something. What teams have been discussing taking Dunn?

[BlackSox13]

Any smart organization would look at the white sox roster and think there's a better chance Keppinger just gets released and the White Sox eat his entire contract after Konerko was signed. Just like with Dunn, if I had any interest in him before this signing, the price I'd pay just went down, not up.

Hadn't thought of it that at but it could make sense to release him. I guess since Paulie is signed and will be on the bench, the best we can hope for is a trade where we eat salary and get pretty much nothing but the open roster spot in return. I still hold on to the hope of that twelver and preferably silver bullets.

[Balta1701]

Hadn't thought of it that at but it could make sense to release him. I guess since Paulie is signed and will be on the bench, the best we can hope for is a trade where we eat salary and get pretty much nothing but the open roster spot in return. I still hold on to the hope of that twelver and preferably silver bullets.

And if we release Keppinger...then the cost of signing Paul Konerko this season is now over $10 million.

[Dick Allen]

And if we release Keppinger...then the cost of signing Paul Konerko this season is now over $10 million.

Not really. You sort of had to pay Keppinger anyway.

[Balta1701]

Not really. You sort of had to pay Keppinger anyway.

But if he were to next year play like his career averages he could go right back to almost being worth what he's paid. Instead, either he or Dunn don't fit on this roster right now.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I think this will cut into Dunn's time far more than it will Abreu's, but I guess that's just opinion. We'll have to see how that plays out.

 

 

 

That makes sense, and I understand it from that aspect.

 

Like I said, I'm not crazy about this move either, but it's small. Like you, I think it stunts the development of some unknown. It's likely that the unknown is someone like Brent Lillibridge or Tyler Greene, but it could also be Carlos Quentin too. It's incredibly frustrating because if the team is serious about winning, they don't go into the season with 3 exclusive 1B/DHs but rather sign or trade for a guy like Craig Gentry (who I seem to remember mashed lefties and was also great defensively; if I'm mistaken, just think lefty masher) who does have added versatility. If they're serious about rebuilding, why are they bringing back a guy who is almost 40? It doesn't make sense other than as a gesture of respect and loyalty, which seems silly.

 

Still, if done right, I don't see it being totally unfeasible that this move actually benefits the Sox and helps them win more games. At this point, in theory, you have a perfect platoon at DH. No, it is not the ideal spot for a platoon, but it will get those two out of the lineups when they should be out of the lineups, so it's not inconceivable that they could ultimately get like 3 WAR out of the DH spot and 8 WAR total between 1B and DH, which would be an incredible improvement. Add an upgrade at 3B and C, even if marginal upgrades, and the Sox almost look like a team that will battle for 2nd or 3rd.

 

Ultimately, I think it's a nil move. I don't think it's going to have much of an effect either way. That's why I really don't care.

Right. As a follow up to the Abreu move it was terrible. Instead of constructing a better roster looking for some upgrades like Gentry and Bourjos, both of whom I lamented missing out on in past posts or getting that LH bat or signing Salty or making some move that improves the offense or defense we get an upgrade at DH. DH !, a position that was the least of my concerns when we already have Dunn, Abreu and Viciedo or a myriad of others who can't field the damn ball . Tahnk you for a well thought out response.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Not really. You sort of had to pay Keppinger anyway.

 

 

Yes you did. But you didn't have to pay Konerko.

[BlackSox13]

And if we release Keppinger...then the cost of signing Paul Konerko this season is now over $10 million.

Thanks for pissing in my cheerios man! Damn...

 

Just another reason why I don't like this signing.

[Dick Allen]

But if he were to next year play like his career averages he could go right back to almost being worth what he's paid. Instead, either he or Dunn don't fit on this roster right now.

Just a reminder, it's December 5th. The season doesn't start for 116 days.

[Balta1701]

Just a reminder, it's December 5th. The season doesn't start for 116 days.

That's a great justification.

 

I'll keep digging my way into this hole, but don't worry I have plenty of time to build some stairs.

[LittleHurt05]

And if Abreu is forced to play because there is not a decent backup that too can stunt his development. He has never had more than 400 ABs in a season. Now you are asking him to make over 600. I'm not a math guy but that looks like his regular season and another half season on top. Having a competent back up seems like insurance to bring him along at whatever pace necessary. If that means Paulie sits, it has been made clear Paulie will sit. If that means Paulie has to play some at 1st, well there is an ok option.

 

As I see this, more and more, I see it as the team wanting flexibillity to do what is best for Abreu and to protect their biggest investment. This season isn't a contending year, so protect your assets. And one of the top assets is Abreu.

 

You already have a backup 1b in Dunn. You can then fill the DH spot with one of your OFs or 3B options.

[Balta1701]

You already have a backup 1b in Dunn. You can then fill the DH spot with one of your OFs or 3B options.

Furthermore, we also have an emergency/alternate RH backup 1b in Keppinger who can fill the role in short bursts.

[2nd_city_saint787]

They didn't have a regular DH other than him. Santana was DH in 47 games. Giambi DH'd in 58 games. 17 games for swisher, 20 games for Reynolds, 17 games for Raburn.

 

Giambi filled Adam Dunn's role on that team. We're carrying an extra one of those.

 

Seriously, what is the difference between having 5 guys DH as opposed to 2?

 

If you have other guys that can fill in at other positions with the 2 remaining bench spots then why is it such a big deal?

 

If we have to keep Kepp, what is the big deal about playing Beckham 10 times a year at SS?

 

If we can trade Kepp, what's wrong with a PK-Catcher-Garcia-Danks bench?

 

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

That's a great justification.

 

I'll keep digging my way into this hole, but don't worry I have plenty of time to build some stairs.

They haven't dug themselves a hole. And it's fine justification. If it were a problem, the Sox could have easily waited until they had acquired this motherload for Keppinger or Dunn before saying Paulie is coming back.

 

And if your scenerio was even close to accurrate, and say the Sox released Keppinger, does that mean if they had kept Keppinger and not signed Paulie they would have been a good team, but will be awful because they did? Your argument is laughable, and you don't even want to consider the roster still has adjusting to be made.

[Balta1701]

Seriously, what is the difference between having 5 guys DH as opposed to 2?

 

If you have other guys that can fill in at other positions with the 2 remaining bench spots then why is it such a big deal?

 

If we have to keep Kepp, what is the big deal about playing Beckham 10 times a year at SS?

 

If we can trade Kepp, what's wrong with a PK-Catcher-Garcia-Danks bench?

The Indians had 1 guy on their roster who was useless at positions other than DH. The White Sox basically have 2. The comparison was to the Indians, so that means the White Sox have more dead space on their bench than the Indians did.

 

"If we can trade keppinger" is the problem. To move him right now we're going to have to eat >$5 million (IMO I'd guess the White Sox would actually have to eat all $9 million remaining on his deal). Why is that a good idea? Why do we need to pay that money to create a roster spot for a guy who can't play the field?

 

That bench, as you wrote it is slightly better than the one we'd be looking at if we didn't buy out Keppinger because now it actually has a lefty, but still has the flaw of 1 guy backing up 3 positions.

[witesoxfan]

Seriously, what is the difference between having 5 guys DH as opposed to 2?

 

If you have other guys that can fill in at other positions with the 2 remaining bench spots then why is it such a big deal?

 

If we have to keep Kepp, what is the big deal about playing Beckham 10 times a year at SS?

 

If we can trade Kepp, what's wrong with a PK-Catcher-Garcia-Danks bench?

 

They don't let you keep 26 guys on the roster.

 

If they are going with an 11 man staff, then you are talking about Reed, Jones, Lindstrom, Webb/Petricka, Veal, and Leesman in all likelyhood. If you have a game where a starter only goes 3-4 innings, your bullpen is immediately screwed for the next 2 days because Leesman probably isn't going to be able to throw 4 innings, which means other guys are going to have to throw an inning or two.

 

Frankly, you are cutting your depth very short with this move, which is the ultimate problem with it.