The Value of Chris Sale

[BlackSox13]

Because people tend to forget that even top 100 prospects flop at a high rate and honestly think we'll get four or five legit major leaguers in return for Sale.

People also tend to forget that: 1) the Sox have a bad farm and most talent is at AA or below 2) this team has a lot of holes at player positions 3) Sale can only help this team for 33 out of 162 games per year 4) like it or not the Sox ARE rebuilding and moving Sale in the right trade speeds that process up 5) even the Sox have been concerned in the past about Sale's durability, so if a team wants to offer up serious talent why not listen? 6) too many fans way over- value their favorite teams players, I saw this at the deadline when fans wanted top prospects for guys like Ramirez, Rios etc. I laughed hard to say the least!

 

IF, the right package were offered for Sale that makes this team better, I would put him on my back and carry him wherever he needed to go. If not, I look forward to watching his next start. First and foremost I am a Sox fan and a secondary fan of Sale. Team first.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I wonder how many times a true #1 pitcher with several years control remaining has been traded for a prospect who also turned into a true #1 pitcher. I don't think it's happened many times. I know that it hasn't happened a lot.

 

Mulder had how many years left when he netted Haren? Randy Johnson brought back Freddy Garcia. Both were only brief aces though, and overall not as impressive in their primes as the guy they were traded for.

 

You trade Sale & you're almost certainly trading the best player in the deal, and unlike my 2 previous examples (looming FA and a contract extension unlikely) there are no issues with Sale more or less forcing us to trade him. I imagine we'll watch what Price goes for, half the board will be like "ALJDAFJHLAF shudda traded Sale fer that KAJDLJKASDJ" and then 3 years later we'll be pretty glad we never sent Sale off for the same package plus a couple jockstraps.

 

We trade Sale we need like 8 guys back or something like that, if they're prospects. Texas can give us Profar, Perez, Martin and a bunch of prospects because we need MLB players. They can take Adam Dunn too & Jeff Keppinger would be a great mascot. If we're counting on receiving 4-5 starting-caliber MLB players who play large roles well, as Chicago White Sox stated, then we'll probably need about 10 guys back to make up for all the world-beating Smoaks and Ackleys and etc. that we'll end up with. And I say that since someone mentioned we're in danger of turning into the Mariners, but actually we're not, because evil Kenny Williams liked to trade off most of his future busts rather than build around them for years in vain.

[The Ultimate Champion]

On June 2, 1987, with the 5th overall pick in the draft, the Sox selected Jack McDowell. 23 years and 1, 116 picks later, on June 7, 2010, the Sox selected Chris Sale with the 13th overall pick. This was the second time in well over 2 decades and well over 1000 picks that the Sox had selected a pitcher in the draft which they would then develop into a true #1 ace starting pitcher. During that period the Sox took a total 50 pitchers in the top 100 overall of their draft classes, and while I'm not really into WAR or anything (I'll use it since everyone else does) the only pitchers of that 50 who have posted a career WAR total as high as Chris Sale's 6.9 during last single season are Alex Fernandez (28.9), Bob Wickman (17.2), JJ Putz who didn't sign and who we didn't therefore develop (13.7), Jeff Weaver who again neither signed nor developed here (15.4), Kip Wells (8.3), and Gio Gonzalez (14.3). I hope this shows how rare Sale is for us.

[Chicago White Sox]

People also tend to forget that: 1) the Sox have a bad farm and most talent is at AA or below 2) this team has a lot of holes at player positions 3) Sale can only help this team for 33 out of 162 games per year 4) like it or not the Sox ARE rebuilding and moving Sale in the right trade speeds that process up 5) even the Sox have been concerned in the past about Sale's durability, so if a team wants to offer up serious talent why not listen? 6) too many fans way over- value their favorite teams players, I saw this at the deadline when fans wanted top prospects for guys like Ramirez, Rios etc. I laughed hard to say the least!

 

IF, the right package were offered for Sale that makes this team better, I would put him on my back and carry him wherever he needed to go. If not, I look forward to watching his next start. First and foremost I am a Sox fan and a secondary fan of Sale. Team first.

The underlying problem with a Sale trade is that unless its for a Trout or Machado type player, there is no trade that will make us better, only trades that might make us better. You're simply gambling on enough of the prospects you get in return actually panning out. Unless you're getting six or seven of the top prospects in a very good system, trading Sale is a gamble that isn't worth taking IMO.

[BlackSox13]

The underlying problem with a Sale trade is that unless its for a Trout or Machado type player, there is no trade that will make us better, only trades that might make us better. You're simply gambling on enough of the prospects you get in return actually panning out. Unless you're getting six or seven of the top prospects in a very good system, trading Sale is a gamble that isn't worth taking IMO.

You also have to look at from the other point of view. Lets take Arizona and the players already mentioned in this thread. If you were a DBacks fan would you cough up the farm for Sale? Personally I would not despite how good Sale is and I've been a life long sox fan going back to the 70's. This is what I meant when I said fans over value their teams players. 6 or 7 top prospects is not reasonable at all and Sale is not worth that many from a team that has good prospects, period.

 

Keeping Sale is also a gamble since he is a pitcher and any pitcher is susceptible to shoulder, elbow injury. Baseball players in general are all gambles.

 

I still remember when the Sox questioned BMac's durability and also how he was untradable, wasn't long after that he was traded ( many fans freaked) and not long after that the injury bug came. This is the risk with any pitcher but especially the tall lanky guys. I'm not saying he will get hurt, just pointing out that it does happen. Again, players and trades alike are both huge gambles.

[The Ultimate Champion]

You also have to look at from the other point of view. Lets take Arizona and the players already mentioned in this thread. If you were a DBacks fan would you cough up the farm for Sale? Personally I would not despite how good Sale is and I've been a life long sox fan going back to the 70's. This is what I meant when I said fans over value their teams players. 6 or 7 top prospects is not reasonable at all and Sale is not worth that many from a team that has good prospects, period.

 

Keeping Sale is also a gamble since he is a pitcher and any pitcher is susceptible to shoulder, elbow injury. Baseball players in general are all gambles.

 

I still remember when the Sox questioned BMac's durability and also how he was untradable, wasn't long after that he was traded ( many fans freaked) and not long after that the injury bug came. This is the risk with any pitcher but especially the tall lanky guys. I'm not saying he will get hurt, just pointing out that it does happen. Again, players and trades alike are both huge gambles.

They're fans. What do they know?

 

We're fans, too. What do we know?

 

Let's go back to the 2009-2010 offseason as one example. Adrian Gonzalez who had just belted out 40 bombs playing half his games in PetCo was on the trade block & I believe at a combined salary of something like $8-9M over the next 2 seasons. He was also ours if we wanted him, signed sealed and delivered, if we wanted to give them Gordon Beckham. Personally I was against that, thought it was too much, and I wasn't alone.

 

But let's say we make that deal, Beckham and maybe we throw in Flowers and a couple other pieces, probably Jordan Danks would've been in that. I don't think we'd have needed Hudson in there had we built the deal around Gordon. Because we acquired Gonzalez we'd have a defensive upgrade at 1B. Paulie would be the DH, Dunn is never signed, meaning we have a real DH in 2010 as opposed to a Mark Kotsay/Andruw Jones platoon. EJax may not even be acquired since it appeared he may have been primarily picked up to get Dunn. Maybe we have Hudson still, maybe he's dealt elsewhere for another piece. We'd have needed a 2B and probably would have made a veteran acquistion rather than Nix. Dunn's money (and maybe EJax's money) that was given out in 2011 is spent elsewhere on a stronger team. We finished 6 games behind the Twins in 2010 even with a turd in the DH slot and who knows, maybe a playoff run there has the 2011 "all-in" season a completely different club that starts out hot and wins instead of swirling down the drain. Or maybe Ozzie ruins everything anyway, no matter what moves are made.

 

Point is, what did we know then? Would we be regretting that deal now? I wouldn't. Trading Sale, a proven ace, for a young player who hasn't proven anything is probably going to turn ugly in a hurry for us. It is very difficult to come up with a player of Sale's magnitude, and in the last example, same with Adrian Gonzalez. Fans are always deathly afraid of risk but somehow want their GMs to build winning organizations without it, as safely as possible, and yet at the same time they advocate some of the silliest practices possible and are fully prepared to judge everything in hindsight without holding themselves accountable for their own opinions. Imagine if you sought out some firm for financial advice and ran into some nutcase who told you to liquidate every asset you have and go buy up as many lottery tickets as you can. That's what a Sale trade is like. And if you're going so far as to trade Sale, what are you keeping Q for?

[southsider2k5]

They're fans. What do they know?

 

We're fans, too. What do we know?

 

Let's go back to the 2009-2010 offseason as one example. Adrian Gonzalez who had just belted out 40 bombs playing half his games in PetCo was on the trade block & I believe at a combined salary of something like $8-9M over the next 2 seasons. He was also ours if we wanted him, signed sealed and delivered, if we wanted to give them Gordon Beckham. Personally I was against that, thought it was too much, and I wasn't alone.

But let's say we make that deal, Beckham and maybe we throw in Flowers and a couple other pieces, probably Jordan Danks would've been in that. I don't think we'd have needed Hudson in there had we built the deal around Gordon. Because we acquired Gonzalez we'd have a defensive upgrade at 1B. Paulie would be the DH, Dunn is never signed, meaning we have a real DH in 2010 as opposed to a Mark Kotsay/Andruw Jones platoon. EJax may not even be acquired since it appeared he may have been primarily picked up to get Dunn. Maybe we have Hudson still, maybe he's dealt elsewhere for another piece. We'd have needed a 2B and probably would have made a veteran acquistion rather than Nix. Dunn's money (and maybe EJax's money) that was given out in 2011 is spent elsewhere on a stronger team. We finished 6 games behind the Twins in 2010 even with a turd in the DH slot and who knows, maybe a playoff run there has the 2011 "all-in" season a completely different club that starts out hot and wins instead of swirling down the drain. Or maybe Ozzie ruins everything anyway, no matter what moves are made.

 

Point is, what did we know then? Would we be regretting that deal now? I wouldn't. Trading Sale, a proven ace, for a young player who hasn't proven anything is probably going to turn ugly in a hurry for us. It is very difficult to come up with a player of Sale's magnitude, and in the last example, same with Adrian Gonzalez. Fans are always deathly afraid of risk but somehow want their GMs to build winning organizations without it, as safely as possible, and yet at the same time they advocate some of the silliest practices possible and are fully prepared to judge everything in hindsight without holding themselves accountable for their own opinions. Imagine if you sought out some firm for financial advice and ran into some nutcase who told you to liquidate every asset you have and go buy up as many lottery tickets as you can. That's what a Sale trade is like. And if you're going so far as to trade Sale, what are you keeping Q for?

 

Did that actually happen, or is that urban legend?

[LittleHurt05]

Did that actually happen, or is that urban legend?

 

The Bulls could have had Kobe for Luol Deng.

[BlackSox13]

TUC,

 

The point I'm trying to make as far as the DBack fan thing is just trying see it from their perspective and not just a Sox fans perspective. In the end I agree, what do any fans know? In hind sight, with bad trades and FA signings the same can be said about GM's. It comes back to baseball players over all are a gamble whether its trades, signings, drafting or injuries.

 

As far as keeping Q, its not about keeping Q, its about the possibility of a team in the market for an elite pitcher calling about Sale and his availablability and what that team would have to potentially offer up in return. Nothing to do with Q whatsoever. Its about Sale's value and the potentially insane return he could bring to a team with a bad farm and multiple holes to fill on the MLB roster. Due to Sale's youth, contract and the fact that he is so damn bad-ass his return would be potentially huge. As I said earlier in this thread, I admit that because of Sale's value he might be untradeable because his value would garner a huge return. A GM might not be willing to give up what Hahn would desire, then again a desperate gm just might which is what the discussion of a Sale trade is about.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Did that actually happen, or is that urban legend?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/adrian_gonzalez/page/12/

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/adrian_gonzalez/page/13/

 

Peavy Has Spoken To White Sox About Acquiring Adrian Gonzalez

By Mike Axisa [March 1, 2010 at 6:08pm CST]

MONDAY, 6:08pm: Gonzalez said he is "flattered" by Peavy's campaigning on his behalf, reports Knobler. But Gonzalez unsurprisingly re-asserted his commitment to the Padres and said he hasn't made any trade demands himself: "I don't have any control about it. If [the Padres] trade me, they'll let me know after it happens. I don't even want to hear that they're talking about it."

 

SUNDAY, 5:58pm: GM Kenny Williams first spoke to Peavy about Gonzalez in January, writes Joe Cowley of the Chicago Sun-Times. Peavy gave his stamp of approval, but the "feeling around 35th and Shields" was that it would take a package including Gordon Beckham to land the first baseman, and the White Sox weren't willing to go there.

 

1:58pm: Mark Gonzales at Chicagobreakingsports.com spoke with Peavy about his campaigning for Gonzalez earlier today. Peavy confirmed that he's spoken with Williams about the big first baseman. "I went into recruiting mode," Peavy said.

 

Peavy speaks highly of Gonzalez as both a player and a person, and says that while Gonzalez loves San Diego, he wants to win and would go anywhere for a chance to do so.

 

SATURDAY: Jake Peavy has already spoken to White Sox GM Kenny Williams about the idea of acquiring Adrian Gonzalez, reports Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com. Williams didn't need to hear it from Peavy, because Knobler says he plans to be first in line whenever Gonzalez is made available.

 

"That's really what we need, a big left-handed hitter," one Sox person said. "They're saying Kenny would give anything to get him, maybe even [Gordon] Beckham."

Although Chicago's lineup already features the lefty bats of Juan Pierre, A.J. Pierzynski, and Mark Teahen, none of them really qualify as a power bat. Gonzalez would certain rectify that, and since incumbent first baseman Paul Konerko may not be back next season, there's a natural fit.

 

If the White Sox offer a package centered around Beckham, it's difficult to see any other team interested in the Padres' first baseman topping it.

[southsider2k5]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/adrian_gonzalez/page/12/

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/adrian_gonzalez/page/13/

 

Peavy Has Spoken To White Sox About Acquiring Adrian Gonzalez

By Mike Axisa [March 1, 2010 at 6:08pm CST]

MONDAY, 6:08pm: Gonzalez said he is "flattered" by Peavy's campaigning on his behalf, reports Knobler. But Gonzalez unsurprisingly re-asserted his commitment to the Padres and said he hasn't made any trade demands himself: "I don't have any control about it. If [the Padres] trade me, they'll let me know after it happens. I don't even want to hear that they're talking about it."

 

SUNDAY, 5:58pm: GM Kenny Williams first spoke to Peavy about Gonzalez in January, writes Joe Cowley of the Chicago Sun-Times. Peavy gave his stamp of approval, but the "feeling around 35th and Shields" was that it would take a package including Gordon Beckham to land the first baseman, and the White Sox weren't willing to go there.

 

1:58pm: Mark Gonzales at Chicagobreakingsports.com spoke with Peavy about his campaigning for Gonzalez earlier today. Peavy confirmed that he's spoken with Williams about the big first baseman. "I went into recruiting mode," Peavy said.

 

Peavy speaks highly of Gonzalez as both a player and a person, and says that while Gonzalez loves San Diego, he wants to win and would go anywhere for a chance to do so.

 

SATURDAY: Jake Peavy has already spoken to White Sox GM Kenny Williams about the idea of acquiring Adrian Gonzalez, reports Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com. Williams didn't need to hear it from Peavy, because Knobler says he plans to be first in line whenever Gonzalez is made available.

 

"That's really what we need, a big left-handed hitter," one Sox person said. "They're saying Kenny would give anything to get him, maybe even [Gordon] Beckham."

Although Chicago's lineup already features the lefty bats of Juan Pierre, A.J. Pierzynski, and Mark Teahen, none of them really qualify as a power bat. Gonzalez would certain rectify that, and since incumbent first baseman Paul Konerko may not be back next season, there's a natural fit.

 

If the White Sox offer a package centered around Beckham, it's difficult to see any other team interested in the Padres' first baseman topping it.

 

Those two things contradict each other. One said he would, the other said he wouldn't. Though it is worth nothing the source who said he wouldn't.

[The Ultimate Champion]

TUC,

 

The point I'm trying to make as far as the DBack fan thing is just trying see it from their perspective and not just a Sox fans perspective. In the end I agree, what do any fans know? In hind sight, with bad trades and FA signings the same can be said about GM's. It comes back to baseball players over all are a gamble whether its trades, signings, drafting or injuries.

 

As far as keeping Q, its not about keeping Q, its about the possibility of a team in the market for an elite pitcher calling about Sale and his availablability and what that team would have to potentially offer up in return. Nothing to do with Q whatsoever. Its about Sale's value and the potentially insane return he could bring to a team with a bad farm and multiple holes to fill on the MLB roster. Due to Sale's youth, contract and the fact that he is so damn bad-ass his return would be potentially huge. As I said earlier in this thread, I admit that because of Sale's value he might be untradeable because his value would garner a huge return. A GM might not be willing to give up what Hahn would desire, then again a desperate gm just might which is what the discussion of a Sale trade is about.

You deal Q if you deal Sale because at that point you are pushing your contention window back at least another year, probably 2 or 3. At that point you are more worried about players in 2016-17 when Q is expensive anyway. Might as well sell at the highest point.

 

Re: gambles, proven players are far, far, far, far less of a gamble than talented but unproven ones, especially those who have never in their lives faced MLB hitters or MLB pitchers. That is a level that they cannot understand and have never known and you can't just say "Well Jimmy gets good grades in school so he can be an astronaut if he wants." Not that easy.

 

The return for Sale, I agree there I guess, and I've been saying, it would have to be stupid. Most people here thankfully don't like the idea of trading Sale, but if he were traded, the deal would have to be so lopsided that even those here who would never get on board with the idea of trading him would have to admit that it was the right move to make. Sale's deal is so team friendly, such a tiny overall risk in money owed to what his performance already is - I mean you're looking at guy who would be pushing $30M per if he keeps it up the way the market is going, and we have him for the next 6 years at under $48M. That's f***ing insane value. You would have to get back such a massive haul.... nothing I have seen posted on here as a trade idea would work. It would have to be insane. It would have to be so nuts that there would be nothing to mull over at all.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Those two things contradict each other. One said he would, the other said he wouldn't. Though it is worth nothing the source who said he wouldn't.

The Friarhood says the Padres would be foolish not to trade Adrian Gonzalez to the White Sox if they offer Gordon Beckham.

^That was a link on MLBTR's page from a Padres blog. The feeling at the time was that we had him if we went Beckham. We didn't. We loved him too much.

 

Eventually Adrian went to Boston and no prospect there (Kelly was the centerpiece) was as exciting as Gordon was when Kenny said no.

[southsider2k5]

The Friarhood says the Padres would be foolish not to trade Adrian Gonzalez to the White Sox if they offer Gordon Beckham.

^That was a link on MLBTR's page from a Padres blog. The feeling at the time was that we had him if we went Beckham. We didn't. We loved him too much.

 

Eventually Adrian went to Boston and no prospect there (Kelly was the centerpiece) was as exciting as Gordon was when Kenny said no.

There is nothing there that actually shows that sd said they would do a Beckham deal.

[BlackSox13]

You deal Q if you deal Sale because at that point you are pushing your contention window back at least another year, probably 2 or 3. At that point you are more worried about players in 2016-17 when Q is expensive anyway. Might as well sell at the highest point.

 

Re: gambles, proven players are far, far, far, far less of a gamble than talented but unproven ones, especially those who have never in their lives faced MLB hitters or MLB pitchers. That is a level that they cannot understand and have never known and you can't just say "Well Jimmy gets good grades in school so he can be an astronaut if he wants." Not that easy.

 

The return for Sale, I agree there I guess, and I've been saying, it would have to be stupid. Most people here thankfully don't like the idea of trading Sale, but if he were traded, the deal would have to be so lopsided that even those here who would never get on board with the idea of trading him would have to admit that it was the right move to make. Sale's deal is so team friendly, such a tiny overall risk in money owed to what his performance already is - I mean you're looking at guy who would be pushing $30M per if he keeps it up the way the market is going, and we have him for the next 6 years at under $48M. That's f***ing insane value. You would have to get back such a massive haul.... nothing I have seen posted on here as a trade idea would work. It would have to be insane. It would have to be so nuts that there would be nothing to mull over at all.

This where we disagree. Any trade for Sale would bring back major league ready talent. Take AZ for instance, guys like Davidson 3b, Gregorius SS, Parra etc. I'm not talking about A ball or AA ball players. At least a few of the players in return would be major league ready or already have gotten their feet wet which was stated earlier in this thread. Guys that can fill holes now as well as help in a year or so. This would speed up the rebuild, not slow it down.

 

As for Q, he doesn't hold nearly the value of Sale at this point and well we still need starting pitching after a Sale trade so keeping Q is the smart move. Again its about Sale's crazy value and how the return can help now and later, not years down the road.

 

Gambles. I guess I question Sale's short and long term durability. Reminds me too much of BMac but that's just my out-there opinion.

 

Allow me to throw something crazy out there and I admit its more conspiracy than anything. One thing that has left me vary curious is why the Sox allowed Sale to throw 110+ pitches deep into meaningless September games while racking up 214 IP on what ended up a 99 loss team when this guy is your long term future ace at only 24 yo? It makes no sense at all. I know you want to build up his arm strength but it still made no sense to me unless (conspiracy part) they were show casing him for a trade this winter. Just a crazy thought is all.

 

One thing I think we can agree on is the return has to include mlb ready talent along with a youn future front line pitcher.

[The Ultimate Champion]

There is nothing there that actually shows that sd said they would do a Beckham deal.

They weren't going to hold negotiations publicly. That's as much as fans ever get to know right there.

 

There is no reason to believe the Padres wouldn't have taken that deal.

[southsider2k5]

They weren't going to hold negotiations publicly. That's as much as fans ever get to know right there.

 

There is no reason to believe the Padres wouldn't have taken that deal.

 

Just as a rule, I am not going to base my reality on Joe Cowley's word.

[The Ultimate Champion]

This where we disagree. Any trade for Sale would bring back major league ready talent. Take AZ for instance, guys like Davidson 3b, Gregorius SS, Parra etc. I'm not talking about A ball or AA ball players. At least a few of the players in return would be major league ready or already have gotten their feet wet which was stated earlier in this thread. Guys that can fill holes now as well as help in a year or so. This would speed up the rebuild, not slow it down.

 

As for Q, he doesn't hold nearly the value of Sale at this point and well we still need starting pitching after a Sale trade so keeping Q is the smart move. Again its about Sale's crazy value and how the return can help now and later, not years down the road.

 

Gambles. I guess I question Sale's short and long term durability. Reminds me too much of BMac but that's just my out-there opinion.

 

Allow me to throw something crazy out there and I admit its more conspiracy than anything. One thing that has left me vary curious is why the Sox allowed Sale to throw 110+ pitches deep into meaningless September games while racking up 214 IP on what ended up a 99 loss team when this guy is your long term future ace at only 24 yo? It makes no sense at all. I know you want to build up his arm strength but it still made no sense to me unless (conspiracy part) they were show casing him for a trade this winter. Just a crazy thought is all.

 

One thing I think we can agree on is the return has to include mlb ready talent along with a youn future front line pitcher.

Nobody you're getting is going to be as good as Sale in all likelihood. You get MLB ready players headlining the thing then great, that's what you would want. But just because Sale may be worth 7 WAR doesn't mean you can acquire a 2 WAR OF and a 3 WAR SP and a 1 WAR RP and a 1 WAR UT guy and everything is equal. All those guys have to be paid through the arbitration process, and even if you lock them up, you probably just end up with a bunch of parts that cost more payroll space. Furthermore none of those faces belong on billboards, on programs, in commercials, nor do their talents deserve showcases on national broadcasts, etc.

 

You're not going to replace Sale. Getting several very good MLB players serves exactly what purpose? When you DO get to the playoffs, where is your Game 1 stopper? What are your weapons? If you are in love with Gregorius you can get him without dealing Sale. If you are in love with this Davidson guy you can get him without Sale. Etc. You don't need to trade a filet mignon to afford 2-3 hamburgers. You can purchase smaller pieces separately.

 

I posted earlier in this thread how we went over 1100 picks and 23 years between the 2 aces we have drafted and developed within my lifetime. You don't just trade them.

 

The last thing I'm posting in this thread:

Juan Uribe = acquired for Aaron Miles, nothing special

DeAza, Jenks = waiver claims

Viciedo, Abreu, Ramirez = signings out of Cuba

Quintana = MiLB FA

Thornton, Politte, D Marte, E Loaiza & his magical 2003 season, etc. = all very low-level acquisitions which turned into gold

 

The list could go on and on. You don't need to trade one of the best players in baseball in order to acquire several much lesser pieces. That doesn't help. Hell, this time last year we had no Abreu, no Garcia. Peavy was looking at a $4M buyout to end a disappointing run, but instead he signs an extension, we trade him for Avisail, then some Cuban slugger defects, and what do we have? The makings of potentially a new middle of the order, all while having taken away exactly nothing from where we sat around this time a year ago. And you want to trade Sale?

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

Just as a rule, I am not going to base my reality on Joe Cowley's word.

You're feisty.

[witesoxfan]

On June 2, 1987, with the 5th overall pick in the draft, the Sox selected Jack McDowell. 23 years and 1, 116 picks later, on June 7, 2010, the Sox selected Chris Sale with the 13th overall pick. This was the second time in well over 2 decades and well over 1000 picks that the Sox had selected a pitcher in the draft which they would then develop into a true #1 ace starting pitcher. During that period the Sox took a total 50 pitchers in the top 100 overall of their draft classes, and while I'm not really into WAR or anything (I'll use it since everyone else does) the only pitchers of that 50 who have posted a career WAR total as high as Chris Sale's 6.9 during last single season are Alex Fernandez (28.9), Bob Wickman (17.2), JJ Putz who didn't sign and who we didn't therefore develop (13.7), Jeff Weaver who again neither signed nor developed here (15.4), Kip Wells (8.3), and Gio Gonzalez (14.3). I hope this shows how rare Sale is for us.

 

I'm really glad you brought up McDowell. The Sox drafted him in 87, he was up shortly after, and then it was 6 years before the Sox actually made the playoffs. They went through a period of terrible baseball with, frankly, one of the best stretches any team has ever had drafting. Still, the point remains - you hang onto assets like that.

 

I'm not saying don't listen. I'm saying it's not wise to trade him for prospects. You really do have to get an incredible haul for him.

[BlackSox13]

Nobody you're getting is going to be as good as Sale in all likelihood. You get MLB ready players headlining the thing then great, that's what you would want. But just because Sale may be worth 7 WAR doesn't mean you can acquire a 2 WAR OF and a 3 WAR SP and a 1 WAR RP and a 1 WAR UT guy and everything is equal. All those guys have to be paid through the arbitration process, and even if you lock them up, you probably just end up with a bunch of parts that cost more payroll space. Furthermore none of those faces belong on billboards, on programs, in commercials, nor do their talents deserve showcases on national broadcasts, etc.

 

You're not going to replace Sale. Getting several very good MLB players serves exactly what purpose? When you DO get to the playoffs, where is your Game 1 stopper? What are your weapons? If you are in love with Gregorius you can get him without dealing Sale. If you are in love with this Davidson guy you can get him without Sale. Etc. You don't need to trade a filet mignon to afford 2-3 hamburgers. You can purchase smaller pieces separately.

 

I posted earlier in this thread how we went over 1100 picks and 23 years between the 2 aces we have drafted and developed within my lifetime. You don't just trade them.

 

The last thing I'm posting in this thread:

Juan Uribe = acquired for Aaron Miles, nothing special

DeAza, Jenks = waiver claims

Viciedo, Abreu, Ramirez = signings out of Cuba

Quintana = MiLB FA

Thornton, Politte, D Marte, E Loaiza & his magical 2003 season, etc. = all very low-level acquisitions which turned into gold

 

The list could go on and on. You don't need to trade one of the best players in baseball in order to acquire several much lesser pieces. That doesn't help. Hell, this time last year we had no Abreu, no Garcia. Peavy was looking at a $4M buyout to end a disappointing run, but instead he signs an extension, we trade him for Avisail, then some Cuban slugger defects, and what do we have? The makings of potentially a new middle of the order, all while having taken away exactly nothing from where we sat around this time a year ago. And you want to trade Sale?

Filet mignons, burgers, billboards, commercials etc? Wow

 

I'll discuss this topic with anyone else but with you I'm done. Life's just too short.

 

[BlackSox13]

I'm not saying don't listen. I'm saying it's not wise to trade him for prospects. You really do have to get an incredible haul for him.

Agreed and that's what everyone that's open to the idea has said from the start of this thread. Not one person has said to call around and see what we can get. I just dont get where a certain poster is coming from, at all. I'm still laughing.

[GreenSox]

This where we disagree. Any trade for Sale would bring back major league ready talent. Take AZ for instance, guys like Davidson 3b, Gregorius SS, Parra etc. I'm not talking about A ball or AA ball players. At least a few of the players in return would be major league ready or already have gotten their feet wet which was stated earlier in this thread. Guys that can fill holes now as well as help in a year or so. This would speed up the rebuild, not slow it down.

 

As for Q, he doesn't hold nearly the value of Sale at this point and well we still need starting pitching after a Sale trade so keeping Q is the smart move. Again its about Sale's crazy value and how the return can help now and later, not years down the road.

What level of major league talent? There have got to be at least 2 players, if not 3, with Sale potential (i.e. all star potential) to make it worthwhile. We need at least 2 in the bush to give up the bird in the hand.

Usable players in return for a player of Sale's caliber will retard our growth; we can sign cheap free agents to get those kind of players anyway.

[BlackSox13]

What level of major league talent? There have got to be at least 2 players, if not 3, with Sale potential (i.e. all star potential) to make it worthwhile. We need at least 2 in the bush to give up the bird in the hand.

Usable players in return for a player of Sale's caliber will retard our growth; we can sign cheap free agents to get those kind of players anyway.

Please read the thread. There have been plenty of players named already from both AZ and Seattle.