Nelson Mandela

[Jenksismyhero]

Kinda surprised he's lasted so long with all the medical issues the last several months. RIP.

[Steve9347]

Kinda surprised he's lasted so long with all the medical issues the last several months. RIP.

This. I'm shocked he held on as long as he did.

[Soxfest]

Kinda surprised he's lasted so long with all the medical issues the last several months. RIP.

He had been in ill health awhile RIP.

[StrangeSox]

One of the greatest fighters for justice in human history. RIP.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/05/world/africa....html?hpt=hp_t1

 

 

eta: jesus christ the comments on that, why did I subject myself

Edited December 5, 2013 by StrangeSox

[BlackSox13]

One of the greatest fighters for justice in human history. RIP.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/05/world/africa....html?hpt=hp_t1

 

 

eta: jesus christ the comments on that, why did I subject myself

Absolutely! RIP Nelson.

[DukeNukeEm]

He was a murderer and war criminal that got a free pass.

[caulfield12]

He was a murderer and war criminal that got a free pass.

 

 

Couldn't you say that about every American president who has allowed the assassination of foreign leaders through the auspices of the CIA?

 

You could make the same case against George W. Bush.

 

 

Pretty amazing timing that a movie about his life is coming out this weekend starring Idris Elba (Thor/Pacific Rim) and Naomie Harris (the last James Bond movie/Moneypenny).

[Milkman delivers]

He was a murderer and war criminal that got a free pass.

 

Expound.

[Brian]

Expound.

 

Just let our resident Ted Nugent make his comment then go.

 

Interesting he says he got a free pass despite spending 27 years in prison.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Brian

[LittleHurt05]

It's so impressive to be so forgiving and generous after being locked up for 30+ years. RIP.

[Buehrle>Wood]

I think his life as a terrorist is much too easily forgotten but he he still managed to make more good of his reign than bad.

[BigSqwert]

I think his life as a terrorist is much too easily forgotten but he he still managed to make more good of his reign than bad.

 

I'm ashamed to say I didn't follow his political career too closely. What terrorist acts did he commit?

Edited December 6, 2013 by BigSqwert

[Milkman delivers]

I'm ashamed to say I didn't follow his political career too closely. What terrorist acts did he commit?

 

Exactly, this is all news to me. And if it's true, it just goes to show how easy it is to be ignorant of global politics.

[Buehrle>Wood]

I'm ashamed to say I didn't follow his political career too closely. What terrorist acts did he commit?

He lead a mass bombing campaign across the country before getting sentenced to life for it and then became mostly the opposite of what he was.

[BigSqwert]

He lead a mass bombing campaign across the country before getting sentenced to life for it and then became mostly the opposite of what he was.

 

Then I guess our forefathers were terrorists too for taking on revolutionary actions. *shrugs*

[Buehrle>Wood]

Then I guess our forefathers were terrorists too for taking on revolutionary actions. *shrugs*

Right. You could make that case I guess. The winners end up writing their own legacy anyways. I'm not complaining.

[DukeNukeEm]

I'm ashamed to say I didn't follow his political career too closely. What terrorist acts did he commit?

He didnt spend 27 years in prison for thought crimes, which is oddly what many people in the USA seem to think. Or at least thats the imoression you get hearing the MLK and Ghandi comparisons.

 

He blew people up. He told people to blow people up. His wife (Mandela's connection to this exactly will never be known) had a habit of putting rubber tires around people's necks and lighting them on fire as an execution method. The Spear of the Nation, the military arm of the ANC, was a paramilitary group that targeted civilians. He founded it.

 

The Apartheid Govt was nasty, but they got a lot more nasty in response to the violence. He scared the living s*** out of them and made them feel forced to crack down instead of negotiate because they feared the 90% majority was going to massacre them. Its part of the reason Apartheid lasted so long.

 

Ghandi and MLK he was not. George Washington he was not. He was brash and ruthless and the monster he created (the ANC) has done nothing but f*** that country up worse and worse.

[Reddy]

He was a murderer and war criminal that got a free pass.

You are the worst human being alive.

[Reddy]

He didnt spend 27 years in prison for thought crimes, which is oddly what many people in the USA seem to think. Or at least thats the imoression you get hearing the MLK and Ghandi comparisons.

 

He blew people up. He told people to blow people up. His wife (Mandela's connection to this exactly will never be known) had a habit of putting rubber tires around people's necks and lighting them on fire as an execution method. The Spear of the Nation, the military arm of the ANC, was a paramilitary group that targeted civilians. He founded it.

 

The Apartheid Govt was nasty, but they got a lot more nasty in response to the violence. He scared the living s*** out of them and made them feel forced to crack down instead of negotiate because they feared the 90% majority was going to massacre them. Its part of the reason Apartheid lasted so long.

 

Ghandi and MLK he was not. George Washington he was not. He was brash and ruthless and the monster he created (the ANC) has done nothing but f*** that country up worse and worse.

 

 

Explain to me the difference between him and American revolutionaries. Please. God you're such a f***ing joke.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Reddy

[caulfield12]

What next Robert E. Lee was a terrorist, too?

 

Nathan Bedford Forrest...

 

Over the last 20-30 years, you would think his military career (mostly in the cavalry) was the equal of Jeb Stuart.

 

Many of the atrocities he committed during the Civil War have been brushed away or covered over by revisionists.

 

The South lost that particular war...and NBF eventually went on to found the KKK.

 

 

So Duke, do you think Nathan Bedford Forrest is more of a hero than Mandela?

[DukeNukeEm]

Explain to me the difference between him and American revolutionaries. Please. God you're such a f***ing joke.

Killing innocent people because of the color of their skin would be a great way to start. Oh, the American Revolutionaries laid the foundation for an eventual world power that on the whole sparked much less evil than its hegemonic predecessors.

 

Meanwhile South Africa is a total s***hole. AIDS and rape capitol of the world, an education system that is no longer discriminatory but now universally awful and a single party system that rules by force. Great job, Nelson! Sounds a lot like Apartheid, just for everyone.

 

South Africa is like Obama though, you levy an ounce of criticism against it and youre immediately racist. Its a liberal pet thats grown big, nasty horns.

Edited December 6, 2013 by DukeNukeEm

[DukeNukeEm]

What next Robert E. Lee was a terrorist, too?

 

Nathan Bedford Forrest...

 

Over the last 20-30 years, you would think his military career (mostly in the cavalry) was the equal of Jeb Stuart.

 

Many of the atrocities he committed during the Civil War have been brushed away or covered over by revisionists.

 

The South lost that particular war...and NBF eventually went on to found the KKK.

 

 

So Duke, do you think Nathan Bedford Forrest is more of a hero than Mandela?

Killing civilians is generally bad, particularly in domestic conflict.

[Jake]

He tried to lead a violent revolution. I think people "let him off the hook" because he revolted against one of the most despicable regimes in recent history. The thing that showed that he was more than a bloodthirsty war leader was his conduct as a political leader. There was widespread fear that that the reformed regime would turn around and really give it back to the white minorities. Instead, he came out and used his political capital to try to bring people together, avert further violence, and simply move on. He came back as a person that was profoundly unbitter for a person that spent 27 years in prison at the hands of his greatest enemy. He made overtures to former apartheid officials in shows of solidarity rather than retribution. It is really quite impressive.

 

As far as his "terrorist" activities, he spent around 15-20 years involved in widespread, yet quite ineffectual nonviolent protests with important backing from Indians that were associated with Ghandi. ANC was constantly considered far too pragmatic and useless due to its resistance to militancy. This is why Mandela left them for the MK, saying this:

 

At the beginning of June 1961, after a long and anxious assessment of the South African situation, I, and some colleagues, came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be unrealistic and wrong for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force.

 

This conclusion was not easily arrived at. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle, and to form Umkhonto we Sizwe. We did so not because we desired such a course, but solely because the government had left us with no other choice. In the Manifesto of Umkhonto published on 16 December 1961, which is exhibit AD, we said:

 

'The time comes in the life of any nation when there remain only two choices – submit or fight. That time has now come to South Africa. We shall not submit and we have no choice but to hit back by all means in our power in defence of our people, our future, and our freedom.'

 

Firstly, we believed that as a result of Government policy, violence by the African people had become inevitable, and that unless responsible leadership was given to canalise and control the feelings of our people, there would be outbreaks of terrorism which would produce an intensity of bitterness and hostility between the various races of this country which is not produced even by war.

 

Secondly, we felt that without violence there would be no way open to the African people to succeed in their struggle against the principle of white supremacy. All lawful modes of expressing opposition to this principle had been closed by legislation, and we were placed in a position in which we had either to accept a permanent state of inferiority, or take over the Government. We chose to defy the law. We first broke the law in a way which avoided any recourse to violence; when this form was legislated against, and then the Government resorted to a show of force to crush opposition to its policies, only then did we decide to answer with violence.

 

When he was offered release from prison in 1988 with the condition that he must swear to forego violence, he refused. He said he would renounce violence as soon as the government did. They didn't like those conditions. He stayed in prison. He always insisted that violence was a last-ditch tactic to be used defensively, and his own actions did quite a good job of exemplifying that. The ANC and MK at times got away from him, especially while he was in prison, and he was ultimately one to face some criticism from those groups for being too "soft" and conciliatory.

 

The ultimate thing that makes people respect him is that he stuck to his word. He didn't take over South Africa and enact violence, he didn't go kill his old oppressors. He said violence was a defensive measure against tyranny and he meant it. He ended up sensing the great extent of his own power due to society's love of him and he left office, despite knowing he could practically enact his own will. He had a reputation for being such a staunch believer in democracy that he would cooperate with ideas he deeply disliked if he knew that they had popular support.

 

Today's South Africa is quite far from perfect, but stands out in Africa as a well-run place.

[Kyyle23]

http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/a...e/p2p-78447778/

 

 

[Milkman delivers]

Today's South Africa is quite far from perfect, but stands out in Africa as a well-run place.

 

That...That's not saying much.