Nelson Mandela

[Reddy]

That...That's not saying much.

By who's standards? And who cares? Why do you expect South Africa to be a paradise 20 years after apartheid???

 

After the Revolution, remind me how many years it took the US to abolish slavery?

 

Think for ONE SECOND people. I know that's tougher for some of you.

[Reddy]

He tried to lead a violent revolution. I think people "let him off the hook" because he revolted against one of the most despicable regimes in recent history. The thing that showed that he was more than a bloodthirsty war leader was his conduct as a political leader. There was widespread fear that that the reformed regime would turn around and really give it back to the white minorities. Instead, he came out and used his political capital to try to bring people together, avert further violence, and simply move on. He came back as a person that was profoundly unbitter for a person that spent 27 years in prison at the hands of his greatest enemy. He made overtures to former apartheid officials in shows of solidarity rather than retribution. It is really quite impressive.

 

As far as his "terrorist" activities, he spent around 15-20 years involved in widespread, yet quite ineffectual nonviolent protests with important backing from Indians that were associated with Ghandi. ANC was constantly considered far too pragmatic and useless due to its resistance to militancy. This is why Mandela left them for the MK, saying this:

 

 

 

When he was offered release from prison in 1988 with the condition that he must swear to forego violence, he refused. He said he would renounce violence as soon as the government did. They didn't like those conditions. He stayed in prison. He always insisted that violence was a last-ditch tactic to be used defensively, and his own actions did quite a good job of exemplifying that. The ANC and MK at times got away from him, especially while he was in prison, and he was ultimately one to face some criticism from those groups for being too "soft" and conciliatory.

 

The ultimate thing that makes people respect him is that he stuck to his word. He didn't take over South Africa and enact violence, he didn't go kill his old oppressors. He said violence was a defensive measure against tyranny and he meant it. He ended up sensing the great extent of his own power due to society's love of him and he left office, despite knowing he could practically enact his own will. He had a reputation for being such a staunch believer in democracy that he would cooperate with ideas he deeply disliked if he knew that they had popular support.

 

Today's South Africa is quite far from perfect, but stands out in Africa as a well-run place.

 

+1,000

 

[caulfield12]

And yet South Africa is now frequently listed along with the other BRIC(S) countries as an additional S...

 

Brazil

Russia

India

China

South Africa

 

 

The country has made enough progress to the point where they could hold/host the World Cup before it made it to Brazil or Russia/Ukraine.

Edited December 6, 2013 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

By who's standards? And who cares? Why do you expect South Africa to be a paradise 20 years after apartheid???

 

After the Revolution, remind me how many years it took the US to abolish slavery?

 

Think for ONE SECOND people. I know that's tougher for some of you.

 

 

 

Apparently we skipped from Reconstruction all the way to World War II and the Baby Boom...and missed Prohibition, the gangster years of Capone, widespread lynchings in the South, the rise and fall of the steamship, Industrial Revolution/Titanic/Great Gatsby/Great Depression...the battle for the rights of women's suffrage, etc.

 

It reminds me of my Chinese students today who always tell me there was never a time without the internet or cell phones.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2013 by caulfield12

[DukeNukeEm]

He tried to lead a violent revolution. I think people "let him off the hook" because he revolted against one of the most despicable regimes in recent history. The thing that showed that he was more than a bloodthirsty war leader was his conduct as a political leader. There was widespread fear that that the reformed regime would turn around and really give it back to the white minorities. Instead, he came out and used his political capital to try to bring people together, avert further violence, and simply move on. He came back as a person that was profoundly unbitter for a person that spent 27 years in prison at the hands of his greatest enemy. He made overtures to former apartheid officials in shows of solidarity rather than retribution. It is really quite impressive.

 

As far as his "terrorist" activities, he spent around 15-20 years involved in widespread, yet quite ineffectual nonviolent protests with important backing from Indians that were associated with Ghandi. ANC was constantly considered far too pragmatic and useless due to its resistance to militancy. This is why Mandela left them for the MK, saying this:

 

 

 

When he was offered release from prison in 1988 with the condition that he must swear to forego violence, he refused. He said he would renounce violence as soon as the government did. They didn't like those conditions. He stayed in prison. He always insisted that violence was a last-ditch tactic to be used defensively, and his own actions did quite a good job of exemplifying that. The ANC and MK at times got away from him, especially while he was in prison, and he was ultimately one to face some criticism from those groups for being too "soft" and conciliatory.

 

The ultimate thing that makes people respect him is that he stuck to his word. He didn't take over South Africa and enact violence, he didn't go kill his old oppressors. He said violence was a defensive measure against tyranny and he meant it. He ended up sensing the great extent of his own power due to society's love of him and he left office, despite knowing he could practically enact his own will. He had a reputation for being such a staunch believer in democracy that he would cooperate with ideas he deeply disliked if he knew that they had popular support.

 

Today's South Africa is quite far from perfect, but stands out in Africa as a well-run place.

Today's South Africa is more corrupt than Rwanda and the President is comically stupid. Hes noted numerous times his beleif that HIV doesnt lead to AIDS and when he had sex with/raped (he got acquitted IIRC) an HIV+ girl he claimed a shower protected him from the disease. Plus the country is basically a smoldering pile of s*** with a rich-poor gap that defies imagination.

 

Its a violent country, and that violence comes from a violent past. Apartheid was eventually doomed to our globalised world, the sanctions were piling up and old allies turned their back on the Apartheid Govt. The chance was there to do it without violence, and he passed it up and went out for blood.

 

Once it was inevitable the ANC was taking control of course he preached reconciliation and peace. He won, he got what he needed out of violence and its not like he was going to need to get oppressive to force the guilted and vastly outnumbered whites to fund this massive reperations and welfare scheme thats clearly sinking the country.

[caulfield12]

Today's South Africa is more corrupt than Rwanda and the President is comically stupid. Hes noted numerous times his beleif that HIV doesnt lead to AIDS and when he had sex with/raped (he got acquitted IIRC) an HIV+ girl he claimed a shower protected him from the disease. Plus the country is basically a smoldering pile of s*** with a rich-poor gap that defies imagination.

 

Its a violent country, and that violence comes from a violent past. Apartheid was eventually doomed to our globalised world, the sanctions were piling up and old allies turned their back on the Apartheid Govt. The chance was there to do it without violence, and he passed it up and went out for blood.

 

Once it was inevitable the ANC was taking control of course he preached reconciliation and peace. He won, he got what he needed out of violence and its not like he was going to need to get oppressive to force the guilted and vastly outnumbered whites to fund this massive reperations and welfare scheme thats clearly sinking the country.

 

 

 

Haven't you just basically given a description of America?

 

Do we not have more deaths by guns/murder/suicide/accident than countries #'s 2-20 combined? Do we not have senseless school shootings and mass killings about once every 2-3 months now?

 

Treatment of the Native Americans? Of Japanese-Americans during WWII? Of women? Of gays? Of every single black person from 1608 until about 1965?

Edited December 6, 2013 by caulfield12

[DukeNukeEm]

And yet South Africa is now frequently listed along with the other BRIC(S) countries as an additional S...

 

Brazil

Russia

India

China

South Africa

 

 

The country has made enough progress to the point where they could hold/host the World Cup before it made it to Brazil or Russia/Ukraine.

Im sick of hearing about the goddamned World Cup like it mattered. Being better than Ukraine is pretty easy, take a look at the news now about whats going on there and the recent past with Kuchma and Yanukovych. Sadly, Id still rather live in Ukraine because at least they dont have an actual culture of rape combined with an AIDS epidemic.

[caulfield12]

Im sick of hearing about the goddamned World Cup like it mattered. Being better than Ukraine is pretty easy, take a look at the news now about whats going on there and the recent past with Kuchma and Yanukovych. Sadly, Id still rather live in Ukraine because at least they dont have an actual culture of rape combined with an AIDS epidemic.

 

 

India and the Middle East have that label right now...

 

And, trust me, Somalia, Sudan and Nigeria are 10X more violent and dangerous than S. Africa now. I could probably name another 10-15 countries, but those are the ones that stand out...without even getting into Libya/Egypt/Arab Spring.

 

 

 

If you don't believe it, just plan your next trip/vacation there. There's a reason why S. Africa is the country that has had the highest increase in tourism among all the African countries over the last 20 years.

Edited December 6, 2013 by caulfield12

[Reddy]

Today's South Africa is more corrupt than Rwanda and the President is comically stupid. Hes noted numerous times his beleif that HIV doesnt lead to AIDS and when he had sex with/raped (he got acquitted IIRC) an HIV+ girl he claimed a shower protected him from the disease. Plus the country is basically a smoldering pile of s*** with a rich-poor gap that defies imagination.

 

Its a violent country, and that violence comes from a violent past. Apartheid was eventually doomed to our globalised world, the sanctions were piling up and old allies turned their back on the Apartheid Govt. The chance was there to do it without violence, and he passed it up and went out for blood.

 

Once it was inevitable the ANC was taking control of course he preached reconciliation and peace. He won, he got what he needed out of violence and its not like he was going to need to get oppressive to force the guilted and vastly outnumbered whites to fund this massive reperations and welfare scheme thats clearly sinking the country.

 

 

20 years, kid. 20 years. What do you think America was like in 1796? What about 1896? What about 1966?

 

Oh and by the way, New York City's rich-poor gap is equivalent to South Africa's. Yeah. We're doing so much better here.

[DukeNukeEm]

Haven't you just basically given a description of America?

 

Do we not have more deaths by guns/murder/suicide/accident than countries #'s 2-20 combined? Do we not have senseless school shootings and mass killings about once every 2-3 months now?

 

Treatment of the Native Americans? Of Japanese-Americans during WWII? Of women? Of gays? Of every single black person from 1608 until about 1965?

Native Americans was a war of conquest that they lost. Back then wars for land happened, if they wanted it so bad they should have fought harder for it.

 

Japanese Camps was stupid and I beleive we've admitted that one and paid the people interred.

 

Women's rights in America moved at about the same pace as history.

 

Gays are discriminated against on one f***ing issue that nobody shuts up about.

 

Blacks is more complicated, but eventually righting those wrongs was an ultimately bloodless affair comparatively.

 

School shootings are meaningless. Infinitesimal amount of deaths wildly overhyped by our blood drunk media. More kids died of Leukemkia on the day of Sandy Hook than by guns, but we dont hear about them because its not dramatic enough. As for suicides, if people want to kill themselves thats up to them. I dont give two s***s about gang members slaughtering each other either, I actually wish theyd get better at it.

 

So yea, America isnt really that violent a place. You are told it is to scare you and vote in these fascists who want to steal your rights "for your safety".

 

OTOH, South Africa is arguably the most violent country in the world. Highest rapes, tons of murder, assault, burglary... the president before this one said something to the effect of "if you dont like it, leave" regarding the rampant violent crime.

[DukeNukeEm]

20 years, kid. 20 years. What do you think America was like in 1796? What about 1896? What about 1966?

 

Oh and by the way, New York City's rich-poor gap is equivalent to South Africa's. Yeah. We're doing so much better here.

We were passing the Bill of Rights, exploring our continent, going to the moon, etc.

 

Not raping each other compulsively.

[DukeNukeEm]

Lol, "What was America doing that was so great in thr 1790's huh?" Is reinventing democratic government for the first time in a millenium not good enough?

[Reddy]

Native Americans was a war of conquest that they lost. Back then wars for land happened, if they wanted it so bad they should have fought harder for it.

 

Japanese Camps was stupid and I beleive we've admitted that one and paid the people interred.

 

Women's rights in America moved at about the same pace as history.

 

Gays are discriminated against on one f***ing issue that nobody shuts up about.

 

Blacks is more complicated, but eventually righting those wrongs was an ultimately bloodless affair comparatively.

 

School shootings are meaningless. Infinitesimal amount of deaths wildly overhyped by our blood drunk media. More kids died of Leukemkia on the day of Sandy Hook than by guns, but we dont hear about them because its not dramatic enough. As for suicides, if people want to kill themselves thats up to them. I dont give two s***s about gang members slaughtering each other either, I actually wish theyd get better at it.

 

So yea, America isnt really that violent a place. You are told it is to scare you and vote in these fascists who want to steal your rights "for your safety".

 

OTOH, South Africa is arguably the most violent country in the world. Highest rapes, tons of murder, assault, burglary... the president before this one said something to the effect of "if you dont like it, leave" regarding the rampant violent crime.

 

I just.

 

this whole thing. All of it. Every line.

 

Baffling.

[Reddy]

We were passing the Bill of Rights, exploring our continent, going to the moon, etc.

 

Not raping each other compulsively.

take off the rose colored glasses kiddo.

[DukeNukeEm]

take off the rose colored glasses kiddo.

Are you trying to tell me the US Constitution was not ratified in the first 20 years of America's existence?

 

If you are I can prove you wrong with facts. Or a fact. One fact.

[Reddy]

Are you trying to tell me the US Constitution was not ratified in the first 20 years of America's existence?

 

If you are I can prove you wrong with facts. Or a fact. One fact.

And you're saying it wasn't ratified by slave owners?

[DukeNukeEm]

And you're saying it wasn't ratified by slave owners?

f*** youre right. We should just burn it then. We can replace the first amendment with #Justice4Trayvon, then we can prove to ourselves that we arent racist anymore.

[Reddy]

f*** youre right. We should just burn it then. We can replace the first amendment with #Justice4Trayvon, then we can prove to ourselves that we arent racist anymore.

You realize, of course, that you're comparing a country that has existed post-revolution for 20 years to a country that has existed post-revolution for 250...

 

right?

 

You do understand this?

[caulfield12]

Native Americans was a war of conquest that they lost. Back then wars for land happened, if they wanted it so bad they should have fought harder for it.

 

Japanese Camps was stupid and I beleive we've admitted that one and paid the people interred.

 

Women's rights in America moved at about the same pace as history.

 

Gays are discriminated against on one f***ing issue that nobody shuts up about.

 

Blacks is more complicated, but eventually righting those wrongs was an ultimately bloodless affair comparatively.

 

School shootings are meaningless. Infinitesimal amount of deaths wildly overhyped by our blood drunk media. More kids died of Leukemkia on the day of Sandy Hook than by guns, but we dont hear about them because its not dramatic enough. As for suicides, if people want to kill themselves thats up to them. I dont give two s***s about gang members slaughtering each other either, I actually wish theyd get better at it.

 

So yea, America isnt really that violent a place. You are told it is to scare you and vote in these fascists who want to steal your rights "for your safety".

 

OTOH, South Africa is arguably the most violent country in the world. Highest rapes, tons of murder, assault, burglary... the president before this one said something to the effect of "if you dont like it, leave" regarding the rampant violent crime.

 

 

Why do I feel like I'm in 1933-34 Germany when I'm reading this?

 

Interesting you even quoted "and vote in these facists who want to steal your rights "for your safety".

 

Didn't that already start with The Patriot Act?

Edited December 6, 2013 by caulfield12

[DukeNukeEm]

You asked what America did in its first 20 years. I said it passed maybe the most important founding document in world history. I am using the exact same standard for both.

 

I dont know why I'm bothering with this. End point : South Africa has turned into one of the most miserable places on the planet under the ANC and can really only be charged with the "accomplishment" of f***ing the country up worse than when it was under Apartheid.

[caulfield12]

You asked what America did in its first 20 years. I said it passed maybe the most important founding document in world history. I am using the exact same standard for both.

 

I dont know why I'm bothering with this. End point : South Africa has turned into one of the most miserable places on the planet under the ANC and can really only be charged with the "accomplishment" of f***ing the country up worse than when it was under Apartheid.

 

 

And yet I'm guessing you've never actually been to South Africa, right?

[DukeNukeEm]

Why do I feel like I'm in 1933-34 Germany when I'm reading this?

 

Interesting you even quoted "and vote in these facists who want to steal your rights "for your safety".

 

Didn't that already start with The Patriot Act?

It started a long, long time ago. But your insistence that other Americans are to be feared because they are dangrous is accelerating the process.

 

Dont worry, it wont be Nazi Germany. They need you alive, healthy and productive so you can keep pumping those tax dollars.

[DukeNukeEm]

And yet I'm guessing you've never actually been to South Africa, right?

No. And judging by the conversations I've had with South Africans its not the best idea.

[Reddy]

You asked what America did in its first 20 years. I said it passed maybe the most important founding document in world history. I am using the exact same standard for both.

 

I dont know why I'm bothering with this. End point : South Africa has turned into one of the most miserable places on the planet under the ANC and can really only be charged with the "accomplishment" of f***ing the country up worse than when it was under Apartheid.

 

In its first 20 years women couldn't vote, blacks were slaves, and people got tarred and feathered and lynched.

 

I just.

 

Is there anything in this world you DON'T hate? I really wanna ask you about our new Pope...

 

Basically I guess the rule of thumb is - if something good happens in the world, Duke hates it.

[Milkman delivers]

By who's standards? And who cares? Why do you expect South Africa to be a paradise 20 years after apartheid???

 

After the Revolution, remind me how many years it took the US to abolish slavery?

 

Think for ONE SECOND people. I know that's tougher for some of you.

 

First of all, blow it out your ass. Secondly, I'm only making a joke about how crappy Africa is as a whole.