Nelson Mandela

[NorthSideSox72]

I didn't believe the original post due entirely to that number being so staggering.

It probably was true of specific tribal groups. There is significant documentation of people arriving in villages and finding it filled almost entirely with dead bodies with no signs of violence. But it certainly wasn't a holistic number. There were probably a few million AmerInds in North American when Europeans started arriving in significant numbers, and there is no way that disease took that number to a few tens of thousands in a short timeframe due to disease.

 

[StrangeSox]

It probably was true of specific tribal groups. There is significant documentation of people arriving in villages and finding it filled almost entirely with dead bodies with no signs of violence. But it certainly wasn't a holistic number. There were probably a few million AmerInds in North American when Europeans started arriving in significant numbers, and there is no way that disease took that number to a few tens of thousands in a short timeframe due to disease.

 

Late 19th century estimates had the entire AmeriInd population estimates around 10 million at first contact, but more modern estimates range from 50 to 100 million.

 

edit: here's a NatGeo article from a few years ago reporting on a study of DNA that found about a 50% drop in population 500 years ago

 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...netics-science/

Edited December 6, 2013 by StrangeSox

[chw42]

Is Duke trolling? Because what he's been saying in this thread is offensive, even by internet standards...

[Reddy]

Is Duke trolling? Because what he's been saying in this thread is offensive, even by internet standards...

That's just how messed up this sad little kid is unfortunately. I'd LOVE to find out some day that this was all just an act and that he trolled us harder than anyone's ever been trolled on the internet, but seems unlikely.

[Texsox]

And there are a lot more Duke's out there. As a white male in the USA I don't see it as much. Living in an area that is 90% Hispanic and having most of my friends be minorities I have begun to understand this. In real life he probably smiles and is tolerant of people who are not like him, but that's just an act.

[bmags]

Just let our resident Ted Nugent make his comment then go.

 

Interesting he says he got a free pass despite spending 27 years in prison.

 

This made me laugh really hard.

[DukeNukeEm]

I had been drinking and went a little off the res. Lets reel this back in.

 

I dont hate Nelson Mandela, I actually kind of admire Mandela's violent streak to an extent. He did what he thought he had to do, it was bad in South Africa and peace wasnt going to solve anything. What I have a problem with is him indiscriminately targeting civilians and the brutality he oversaw. He was not a saint as so many like to portray. He killed a lot of people.

 

His party did f*** the country up something fierce, too. They broke Apartheid but replaced it with a corrupt, wicked demon child that is doing serious harm to those people.

 

I dont condemn him for being a terrorist or communist, his ideology is his business and the institution he was terrorizing deserved it. But, and its a big but, he did some stuff that cant be reconciled away. He tried to leave South Africa a better place than he found it but in the end the country has managed to get worse and the means no longer justify the ends.

 

[StrangeSox]

I had been drinking and went a little off the res. Lets reel this back in.

 

I dont hate Nelson Mandela, I actually kind of admire Mandela's violent streak to an extent. He did what he thought he had to do, it was bad in South Africa and peace wasnt going to solve anything. What I have a problem with is him indiscriminately targeting civilians and the brutality he oversaw. He was not a saint as so many like to portray. He killed a lot of people.

 

the f*** are you talking about?

 

His party did f*** the country up something fierce, too. They broke Apartheid but replaced it with a corrupt, wicked demon child that is doing serious harm to those people.

 

I dont condemn him for being a terrorist or communist, his ideology is his business and the institution he was terrorizing deserved it. But, and its a big but, he did some stuff that cant be reconciled away. He tried to leave South Africa a better place than he found it but in the end the country has managed to get worse and the means no longer justify the ends.

 

The ANC may or may not have problems now, over a decade after he left office.

 

The country has gotten worse for whom? The Africans who were oppressed for generations under the Apartheid government?

Edited December 6, 2013 by StrangeSox

[DukeNukeEm]

He targeted innocents to punish the guilty. Which is, despite being a word I dont like using, terrorism.

 

A big part of this is what kind of evils people seem willing to endure. South Africa is an AIDS infested rape jungle swarmed in poverty and general indifference to human suffering. Thats bad, and its really an objective fact that I could easily prove and you know it.

 

But the institutional racism is gone. And the racism was bad too. Thats a fact, it can be proven, etc.

 

Im just wondering out loud whether the trade-off seems worth it. The ANC did away with almost every aspect of Apartheid Government which is a triumph. But theyve also watched the country slide way backwards in terms of the quality and length of its citizens lives.

 

Are we just intolerant to racism but paradoxically tolerant to widespread death, suffering and poverty? I think so. I cant make up my mind whether that's right or not, and since I have those doubts canonizing Nelson Mandela seems rash and ignorant of what South Africa is today.

[Balta1701]

The country has gotten worse for whom? The Africans who were oppressed for generations under the Apartheid government?

South Africa's GDP versus year, with the blue line marking the end of Apartheid.

[StrangeSox]

He targeted innocents to punish the guilty. Which is, despite being a word I dont like using, terrorism.

 

the f*** are you talking about?

 

A big part of this is what kind of evils people seem willing to endure. South Africa is an AIDS infested rape jungle swarmed in poverty and general indifference to human suffering. Thats bad, and its really an objective fact that I could easily prove and you know it.

 

South Africa has issues. Nobody has denied that. The problem is the rest of the garbage you've said that looks like it's been cribbed from stormfront or the John Birch Society.

 

Im just wondering out loud whether the trade-off seems worth it. The ANC did away with almost every aspect of Apartheid Government which is a triumph. But theyve also watched the country slide way backwards in terms of the quality and length of its citizens lives.

 

Are we just intolerant to racism but paradoxically tolerant to widespread death, suffering and poverty? I think so. I cant make up my mind whether that's right or not, and since I have those doubts canonizing Nelson Mandela seems rash and ignorant of what South Africa is today.

 

A white dude in the US musing over whether the end of apartheid was really "worth it," cool. Sums up the typical libertarian view pretty well, though.

 

Forgive me if I take your concerns here as less than sincere, since you routinely seem to derive pleasure from kicking the poor and suffering in this country.

Edited December 6, 2013 by StrangeSox

[DukeNukeEm]

The poor in this country dont have much of an excuse. The guy livi ng in a cardboard house outside Johannesburg probably does.

[Reddy]

I had been drinking and went a little off the res. Lets reel this back in.

 

I dont hate Nelson Mandela, I actually kind of admire Mandela's violent streak to an extent. He did what he thought he had to do, it was bad in South Africa and peace wasnt going to solve anything. What I have a problem with is him indiscriminately targeting civilians and the brutality he oversaw. He was not a saint as so many like to portray. He killed a lot of people.

 

His party did f*** the country up something fierce, too. They broke Apartheid but replaced it with a corrupt, wicked demon child that is doing serious harm to those people.

 

I dont condemn him for being a terrorist or communist, his ideology is his business and the institution he was terrorizing deserved it. But, and its a big but, he did some stuff that cant be reconciled away. He tried to leave South Africa a better place than he found it but in the end the country has managed to get worse and the means no longer justify the ends.

 

It can and has been reconciled away. The man IS a saint. There's nothing that says saints have to be perfect from day one. Just ask Connor and Murphy McManus

[DukeNukeEm]

South Africa's GDP versus year, with the blue line marking the end of Apartheid.

Life expectancy has gone down. Crime has gone up. Its gotten worse.

 

I could link this but copy/pasting on my phone is an ordeal. I dont want to.

[Reddy]

The poor in this country dont have much of an excuse. The guy livi ng in a cardboard house outside Johannesburg probably does.

you realize, of course, that there are 34 countries in the world with lower poverty rates than the United States, yes? Including - wait for it - Syria.

 

In NYC alone, the 21% poverty rate puts us right up there with Pakistan.

 

But of course they don't have an excuse here. The system is absolutely not rigged against them.

[StrangeSox]

Life expectancy has gone down. Crime has gone up. Its gotten worse.

 

I could link this but copy/pasting on my phone is an ordeal. I dont want to.

 

For whom? And why is this Mandela's fault? For your argument to make any sense, it seems to be implying that the end of white-minority rule of SA necessarily leads to things 'getting worse.'

[DukeNukeEm]

South Africa has issues. Nobody has denied that. The problem is the rest of the garbage you've said that looks like it's been cribbed from stormfront or the John Birch Society

Yet you just wave over them. The closest anyone came was challenging America's first 20 years of existence, which was kind of stupid because America did a whole lot of good in its first 20 years.

[DukeNukeEm]

you realize, of course, that there are 34 countries in the world with lower poverty rates than the United States, yes? Including - wait for it - Syria.

 

In NYC alone, the 21% poverty rate puts us right up there with Pakistan.

 

But of course they don't have an excuse here. The system is absolutely not rigged against them.

Entitled and lazy. It says a lot that we have so many, theres no excuse in a country with this much opportunity and resources. Not every other country is so fortunate.

[Reddy]

For whom? And why is this Mandela's fault? For your argument to make any sense, it seems to be implying that the end of white-minority rule of SA necessarily leads to things 'getting worse.'

 

Nah he's still comparing a 20 year old country to a 250 year old country. He's not gonna change his tune either. I recall the US having some big internal war in the 1800's... which one was that again?

 

ANY TIME THERE IS A NEW GOVERNMENT OR REGIME CHANGE THERE WILL BE TURMOIL FOR A LONG-ASS TIME.

 

Get it?

 

Wait... I just drew a parallel... were you for or against the Iraq war? Because all I hear the GOP say was that regime change of that nature (no different than SA's) is worth it even if the turmoil lasts for years afterwards.

[StrangeSox]

Yet you just wave over them. The closest anyone came was challenging America's first 20 years of existence, which was kind of stupid because America did a whole lot of good in its first 20 years.

 

I don't view any issues SA has right now as the direct and inevitable result of the end of apartheid or of Mandela's work specifically. You, apparently, think "we" need to consider a trade-off between white supremacy and poverty/crime, and that Mandela is somehow personally responsible for any current problems with the ANC or SA.

[Balta1701]

Life expectancy has gone down. .

So you're blaming Nelson Mandela for AIDS.

 

I get it that his successor has been a denier, but that's a terrible reason to keep people in servitude.

[Reddy]

Duke: Because Mandela didn't create a model utopia in South Africa 20 years after peacefully bringing down an oppressive regime, he is undeserving of the praise and adoration he's receiving as one of the greatest and most influential powers for good of our time.

 

Does that about sum it all up?

[DukeNukeEm]

I don't view any issues SA has right now as the direct and inevitable result of the end of apartheid or of Mandela's work specifically. You, apparently, think "we" need to consider a trade-off between white supremacy and poverty/crime, and that Mandela is somehow personally responsible for any current problems with the ANC or SA.

Because its his ANC that has presided over this mess. He created it, he entrenched it and its the idolatry that he carried that makes it so powerful and immovable.

 

I am nearly positive all the well intentioned American blunders don't get this kind of free pass. Why the double standard?

[StrangeSox]

Because its his ANC that has presided over this mess. He created it, he entrenched it and its the idolatry that he carried that makes it so powerful and immovable.

 

go read a book you ignorant buffoon.

[DukeNukeEm]

So you're blaming Nelson Mandela for AIDS.

 

I get it that his successor has been a denier, but that's a terrible reason to keep people in servitude.

And rape, and violent crime, and corruption, and one-party rule.