Nelson Mandela

[Reddy]

go read a book you ignorant buffoon.

like

[Balta1701]

Crime has gone up.

I should also add some details to show this being untrue. A few types have gone up since then, particularly robberies, but a 40% decline in the murder rate is pretty darn good.

[DukeNukeEm]

go read a book you ignorant buffoon.

Its modern incarnation is his doing. It existed before but he built it into what it is now.

[Balta1701]

And rape, and violent crime, and corruption, and one-party rule.

The incidents of rape in South Africa have declined since 1995 by about 25%.

[DukeNukeEm]

I should also add some details to show this being untrue. A few types have gone up since then, particularly robberies, but a 40% decline in the murder rate is pretty darn good.

That chart supports my point.

[Balta1701]

That chart supports my point.

Except for the part where you talked about the increasing rape rate, which was false. Aggrivated robbery has gone up, but a 40% drop in murder rate continues to be pretty darn good.

[StrangeSox]

And rape, and violent crime, and corruption, and one-party rule.

 

Democratically elected in fair, free elections "one-party rule."

 

Mandela's intention was the end of racial supremacy and the establishment of a democratic society. That was accomplished. What the ANC does now in no way, shape or form lessens the validity or moral righteousness of Mandela and what he worked, fought and sacrificed for.

 

And again, you seem to be whip-lashing back and forth between "America rulz for re-establishing (very limited aristocratic) democracy!" and "maybe that whole one-man, one-vote thing isn't really worth it and white oligarchical rule in SA really wasn't so bad?"

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

That chart supports my point.

You have now lost the one salvaging quality of your posts - dealing in facts even if they aren't pretty. You are now trying to leave the world of Euclidian geometry and elemental mathematics, and have decided that crime going down means crime going up. You can't even see the res' anymore.

 

[bmags]

Also their yearly GDP pre and post sanctions pretty much met up until the global crash of 08. Pretty good as it moves from exploitative mining economy for the few to an exploitative mining economy for some more that can also be taxed and distributed to benefit more of the country now that it's not run by oppressive minority rule.

[StrangeSox]

Also their yearly GDP pre and post sanctions pretty much met up until the global crash of 08. Pretty good as it moves from exploitative mining economy for the few to an exploitative mining economy for some more that can also be taxed and distributed to benefit more of the country now that it's not run by oppressive minority rule.

 

But things have gotten worse for that oppressive minority. Is that really worth it??

[Milkman delivers]

One thing I keep noticing, and it's hardly a big deal, but people keep calling SA 20 years old. It became its own republic in 1961. Yes, it's gone through changes in leadership and equality, but it's still the same country. It'd be like saying America is only 49 years old because of the civil rights act of 1964. Or considering it a new country with each new President or Congressional majority.

[bmags]

It'd be like saying America is only 49 years old because of the civil rights act of 1964. Or considering it a new country with each new President or Congressional majority.

 

Kinda...except the white population was like what, 75% at that point? In South Africa I don't even know what the percentage was, but a large majority was basically banned from any governing.

[StrangeSox]

One thing I keep noticing, and it's hardly a big deal, but people keep calling SA 20 years old. It became its own republic in 1961. Yes, it's gone through changes in leadership and equality, but it's still the same country. It'd be like saying America is only 49 years old because of the civil rights act of 1964. Or considering it a new country with each new President or Congressional majority.

 

Well, the 1994 election was held with the specific intention of completely scrapping apartheid. They were working with a temporary constitution from that election until a new one was ratified a couple years later. It wasn't really equivalent to the Civil Rights Act or even the Reconstruction Amendments, but if we had instead scrapped the entire constitution and started over. Essentially everything about the political entity "South Africa" changed starting in 1994.

 

lol, this line from the wikipedia on the interim constitution is pretty hilarious:

 

while the governing National Party (NP) [who had been a one-party apartheid ruler] feared that the rights of minorities would not be protected in such a process

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2013 by StrangeSox

[NorthSideSox72]

Also worth noting, in addition to the many very good things a new USA did in 20 years...

 

1. It also did a lot of pretty bad things (but again, just as with Mandela's legacy, that doesn't make the whole thing bad)

 

2. When the USA became a nation it was economically hanging on by a thread for many decades

 

 

[Milkman delivers]

Well, the 1994 election was held with the specific intention of completely scrapping apartheid. They were working with a temporary constitution from that election until a new one was ratified a couple years later. It wasn't really equivalent to the Civil Rights Act or even the Reconstruction Amendments, but if we had instead scrapped the entire constitution and started over. Essentially everything about the political entity "South Africa" changed starting in 1994.

 

I understand, but I'm just kind of a stickler for being exact.

[StrangeSox]

I understand, but I'm just kind of a stickler for being exact.

 

I don't think it's inexact to say that Apartheid SA and Post-Apartheid SA are completely different things, though. The entire government was scrapped.

[bmags]

Kinda like how many say US started after congressional congress not necessarily after Yorktown.

[Jenksismyhero]

you realize, of course, that there are 34 countries in the world with lower poverty rates than the United States, yes? Including - wait for it - Syria.

 

In NYC alone, the 21% poverty rate puts us right up there with Pakistan.

 

But of course they don't have an excuse here. The system is absolutely not rigged against them.

 

I bet those Syrian and Pakistani numbers are 100% accurate too...

 

[StrangeSox]

Kinda like how many say US started after congressional congress not necessarily after Yorktown.

 

Or the Articles of Confederation

[Texsox]

Also worth noting, in addition to the many very good things a new USA did in 20 years...

 

1. It also did a lot of pretty bad things (but again, just as with Mandela's legacy, that doesn't make the whole thing bad)

 

2. When the USA became a nation it was economically hanging on by a thread for many decades

And much of the economic growth in the "new world" came about from tobacco grown from seeds illegally smuggled out of the West Indies, cotton picked by slaves, and textile mills built from smuggled blueprints and on land that was aquired by ethnic cleansing.

 

[TaylorStSox]

I had been drinking and went a little off the res. Lets reel this back in.

 

I dont hate Nelson Mandela, I actually kind of admire Mandela's violent streak to an extent. He did what he thought he had to do, it was bad in South Africa and peace wasnt going to solve anything. What I have a problem with is him indiscriminately targeting civilians and the brutality he oversaw. He was not a saint as so many like to portray. He killed a lot of people.

 

His party did f*** the country up something fierce, too. They broke Apartheid but replaced it with a corrupt, wicked demon child that is doing serious harm to those people.

 

I dont condemn him for being a terrorist or communist, his ideology is his business and the institution he was terrorizing deserved it. But, and its a big but, he did some stuff that cant be reconciled away. He tried to leave South Africa a better place than he found it but in the end the country has managed to get worse and the means no longer justify the ends.

 

Drinking inspires you to be a mean spirited bigot? You must be the life if parties.

 

I seriously hope you don't have any kids.

[DukeNukeEm]

Except for the part where you talked about the increasing rape rate, which was false. Aggrivated robbery has gone up, but a 40% drop in murder rate continues to be pretty darn good.

It has, they know it has. This chart, which is the first thing you get if you Google image "south africa crime" leaves out all pre-ANC stats and the last 5 years where those rates have gone up.

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_viol...in_South_Africa

 

There, making me cut and paste and s***. Highest instance of reported rape on the planet, only est 1 in 9 rapes reported and the one thing youd figure a government would do, raise penalties, doesnt happen. Its 2 years if you rape someone. Even the president got charged (later acquitted) with rape.

 

But yea, its getting better. Because Balta found a dumb chart on Google.

[DukeNukeEm]

Drinking inspires you to be a mean spirited bigot? You must be the life if parties.

 

I seriously hope you don't have any kids.

Nothing I said is racist. At all.

 

Go back abd find me the smoking gun of this horrible bigotry.

 

[DukeNukeEm]

In fact, Im the least racist person in this thread. I maintain this ANC crap has failed but everyone else defends it. People are actually suffering under these assholes, and we fail to exert the same international pressure to oust the ANC because the see South Africans as pet negros they can use to prove how rainbow they are.

 

People would rather they suffer than backtrack on how awful their government is due to political correctness.

[StrangeSox]

Nothing I said is racist. At all.

 

Go back abd find me the smoking gun of this horrible bigotry.

 

 

In fact, Im the least racist person in this thread. I maintain this ANC crap has failed but everyone else defends it. People are actually suffering under these assholes, and we fail to exert the same international pressure to oust the ANC because the see South Africans as pet negros they can use to prove how rainbow they are.

 

People would rather they suffer than backtrack on how awful their government is due to political correctness.

 

Are you drinking again or?

 

edit: good time to link to how least-racist-person Duke described the 50th anniversary of one of the biggest moments of the civil rights movement in this country, the March on Washington for Jobs and Equality:

 

At this point I'm familiar enough with liberal horses*** to know "jobs" means "excuses why I don't have one" and equality means "more free s*** please." So I wouldn't expected anyone with any dignity to show up for the Rally for Handouts and Laziness.

 

Also let's be very clear, your position throughout this thread hasn't been "ANC has done a poor job of governing in post-Apartheid SA." It's been a bunch of JBS-style slander of Mandela and open consideration of whether apartheid really was that bad and should have been ended.

Edited December 6, 2013 by StrangeSox