Nelson Mandela

[southsider2k5]

South Africa's GDP versus year, with the blue line marking the end of Apartheid.

 

So for the first 10ish years afterwards, they actually had shrunk the economy in real terms, not even in inflationally adjusted?? That is amazingly bad.

[NorthSideSox72]

So for the first 10ish years afterwards, they actually had shrunk the economy in real terms, not even in inflationally adjusted?? That is amazingly bad.

For a country that was basically starting over governmentally and in terms of societal rules? No, that curve is amazingly good. As I said, it took decades the the US economy to start being useful after their independence.

 

 

[Jake]

 

this reflects annual growth in the positive throughout the transition

[southsider2k5]

 

this reflects annual growth in the positive throughout the transition

 

So Balta's chart is wrong?

[Balta1701]

So Balta's chart is wrong?

It wouldn't surprise me, I wasn't impressed with the quality of "South African GDP data" when I googled it.

 

Darn socialized countries like the United States spoil me with good data.

[bmags]

It wouldn't surprise me, I wasn't impressed with the quality of "South African GDP data" when I googled it.

 

Darn socialized countries like the United States spoil me with good data.

CIA should have this data I believe.

[Jake]

I also found this sort of data incredibly difficult to find, so I won't claim it as unassailable. There was a great deal of land redistribution in the early years of post-apartheid era, so who knows what effect that had on the economy

[southsider2k5]

I also found this sort of data incredibly difficult to find, so I won't claim it as unassailable. There was a great deal of land redistribution in the early years of post-apartheid era, so who knows what effect that had on the economy

 

At least one of them is wrong. You can't have positive growth AND a shrinking economy.

[DukeNukeEm]

You have now lost the one salvaging quality of your posts - dealing in facts even if they aren't pretty. You are now trying to leave the world of Euclidian geometry and elemental mathematics, and have decided that crime going down means crime going up. You can't even see the res' anymore.

This post is so good I wish I had wrote it myself.

[DukeNukeEm]

Are you drinking again or?

 

edit: good time to link to how least-racist-person Duke described the 50th anniversary of one of the biggest moments of the civil rights movement in this country, the March on Washington for Jobs and Equality:

 

 

 

Also let's be very clear, your position throughout this thread hasn't been "ANC has done a poor job of governing in post-Apartheid SA." It's been a bunch of JBS-style slander of Mandela and open consideration of whether apartheid really was that bad and should have been ended.

Not really, Im just wondering what they replaced Apartheid with really has a moral leg to stand on.

[Reddy]

Not really, Im just wondering what they replaced Apartheid with really has a moral leg to stand on.

...

[StrangeSox]

Not really, Im just wondering what they replaced Apartheid with really has a moral leg to stand on.

Uh, "not apartheid" is that leg. As the Most Not Racist,I would have thought you would know that.

 

But maybe your view of Africans is similar to your view of Syrians: "biologically"humans but really just a bunch of murderous savages. You never seem to miss an opportunity to s*** on a real civil rights movement while whining about "freedom"

[caulfield12]

Duke: Because Mandela didn't create a model utopia in South Africa 20 years after peacefully bringing down an oppressive regime, he is undeserving of the praise and adoration he's receiving as one of the greatest and most influential powers for good of our time.

 

Does that about sum it all up?

 

 

 

 

 

Mother Teresa must be undeserving too, since overpopulation and the prevalence of diseases worsened during the time period in India while she was running Missionaries of Charity in Calcutta/Kolkata.

[Reddy]

I think we've finally found a topic in which everyone on this board disagrees with Duke.

[DukeNukeEm]

Uh, "not apartheid" is that leg. As the Most Not Racist,I would have thought you would know that.

 

But maybe your view of Africans is similar to your view of Syrians: "biologically"humans but really just a bunch of murderous savages. You never seem to miss an opportunity to s*** on a real civil rights movement while whining about "freedom"

Yea, because the cultures of the 3rd world are so benevolent.

 

An ANC government that unilaterally ignores the needs of the white minority is fine. Well, not just fine but beyond criticism. You try and admit that they arent perfect but every time I bring up those imperfections you freak out. And if I actually try to blame the person nost responsible for their reign? It ilicits a reaction from you thats so genuinely angry you start reminding me of myself.

 

But on the other side of the Atlantic your views are a little different. The black minority needs to be protected from the hostile will of the white majority. Really, its a democratic tyranny argument at its core when people start talking about civil rights in the USA. Every time something like the CRA65 gets passed its circumventing democracy intentionally because 50%+1 dont really give a s*** about 15%.

 

I dont really like democracy that much so I dont care either way as much as I let on. But, I do have a bit of an issue with people lauding a foreign democracy for mistreating a minority group while chasting its domestic counterpart for not mistreating the majority enough. Is it really because of skin color? Has white guilt gone global?

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Do you even believe that bulls*** you're trying to deflect with? Or are you really trying that hard to rationalize your racism and ignorance?

[Texsox]

There is a great lesson in board posting here. If someone who is better respected around here, a level headed moderate perhaps like NSS had posted:

 

Isn't it interesting that someone who started out embracing violence, someone who the government could have rightly termed a "terrorist", became a world icon for fighting injustice and was such a huge factor in transforming not only South Africa, but the world. And then went on a briefly summarized the not so pretty part of Mandela's past it would not have turned so ugly.

Instead Duke wrote a slightly more inflammatory post, then in trying to justify his mostly correct post, went deeper and deeper into ugliness. I do hope in his frenzied attempts at defending his earlier posts Duke distorted his own opinions on humans that share all the same characteristics as himself except for skin pigment.

 

So if we could, let's take a huge step back. Mandela was part of acts that while we can debate if they were justified or not, where illegal and of questionable morals. In fact if whites in the country began today doing the same acts that Mandela's groups did, the world would soundly denounce them. But what Mandela was fighting for most of the world applauds. And whether or not SA is a better country for it, we should simply look at the US south. The economy of the United States south was much better prior to the Civil War and the end of slavery. It took decades to repair and rebuild. But I would rather see free people struggling to build an economy based on equal opportunity for all than a thriving economy where only a portion of the public has opportunity.

 

So while I really do not want to be seen as a defender of Duke's writings, we should consider, as Duke started, all of Mandela's life. I believe it is an amazing journey that shows the potential of change in all humans. I applaud, not attack, Mandela's path and find it inspiring.

[StrangeSox]

Nah, I'm just going to take duke's explicitly racist posting history combined with his racist posts itt and his generally horrible ideology for what they are. No need to make excuses or try to play negotiator for his bulls***. He hasn't been saying anything remotely like your hypothetical quote, and what he had said isn't just "slightly"more inflammatory.

[caulfield12]

There is a great lesson in board posting here. If someone who is better respected around here, a level headed moderate perhaps like NSS had posted:

 

 

Instead Duke wrote a slightly more inflammatory post, then in trying to justify his mostly correct post, went deeper and deeper into ugliness. I do hope in his frenzied attempts at defending his earlier posts Duke distorted his own opinions on humans that share all the same characteristics as himself except for skin pigment.

 

So if we could, let's take a huge step back. Mandela was part of acts that while we can debate if they were justified or not, where illegal and of questionable morals. In fact if whites in the country began today doing the same acts that Mandela's groups did, the world would soundly denounce them. But what Mandela was fighting for most of the world applauds. And whether or not SA is a better country for it, we should simply look at the US south. The economy of the United States south was much better prior to the Civil War and the end of slavery. It took decades to repair and rebuild. But I would rather see free people struggling to build an economy based on equal opportunity for all than a thriving economy where only a portion of the public has opportunity.

 

So while I really do not want to be seen as a defender of Duke's writings, we should consider, as Duke started, all of Mandela's life. I believe it is an amazing journey that shows the potential of change in all humans. I applaud, not attack, Mandela's path and find it inspiring.

 

Sure, you can do the same thing with Malcolm X, for example, only looking at the past 2-3 years of his life (after he was denounced by Elijah Muhammad)....or the time period after he went on a pilgrimage to Mecca, etc., compared to his much more violent earlier years.

 

The most important point is still going to be not who he was, but what he eventually became/evolved into, because the ugly past and leadership "mistakes" often lead to wisdom and greater understanding.

Edited December 7, 2013 by caulfield12

[Texsox]

Nah, I'm just going to take duke's explicitly racist posting history combined with his racist posts itt and his generally horrible ideology for what they are. No need to make excuses or try to play negotiator for his bulls***. He hasn't been saying anything remotely like your hypothetical quote, and what he had said isn't just "slightly"more inflammatory.

 

I agree he didn't write anything close to that. In fact that is my point. That if it was phrased better, and by someone who has not posted ugly racist posts prior, it would not have been so soundly denounced.

 

And I wasn't trying to make any excuses either. What I was trying to point out is the kernel of truth in Duke's ugly racist posts. Mandela was not a saint from birth. I believe Mandela became one. It highlights the remarkable ability and potential for all of us to change.

[TaylorStSox]

I agree he didn't write anything close to that. In fact that is my point. That if it was phrased better, and by someone who has not posted ugly racist posts prior, it would not have been so soundly denounced.

 

And I wasn't trying to make any excuses either. What I was trying to point out is the kernel of truth in Duke's ugly racist posts. Mandela was not a saint from birth. I believe Mandela became one. It highlights the remarkable ability and potential for all of us to change.

"Native Americans was a war of conquest that they lost. Back then wars for land happened, if they wanted it so bad they should have fought harder for it."

 

 

[caulfield12]

"Native Americans was a war of conquest that they lost. Back then wars for land happened, if they wanted it so bad they should have fought harder for it."

 

 

Just like the Ethiopians throwing spears at German planes I suppose...

 

But we did give them (Native Americans) diseases, religion (mostly Catholicism, after they were taught that they were essentially "heathens" or infidels by their paternalistic caretakers), alcohol and gambling.

Edited December 7, 2013 by caulfield12

[Reddy]

"Native Americans was a war of conquest that they lost. Back then wars for land happened, if they wanted it so bad they should have fought harder for it."

It just shows a complete and utter ignorance of history. Something like 50% of Native Americans were wiped out right before the Europeans got here by their version of the plague. Had that plague not happened, we wouldn't be here right now.

 

It has nothing to do with them not "fighting hard enough". Sweet jesus.

[Texsox]

Plus it is difficult to fight a war when you don't realize you are fighting a war or have no understanding in your life of "war".

[Balta1701]

Plus it is difficult to fight a war when you don't realize you are fighting a war or have no understanding in your life of "war".

WTF? What civilization on Earth are we talking about that "has no understanding of war"?