Law/Legal Thread

[Chisoxfn]

A similiar thing happened to a friend of mine. He was worked like a dog and couldn't take it so he quit maybe 6 months into his legal career. He drove a beer truck for a while, then went into the world of trading indexes. Now he's back as a corporate lawyer.

I was going to suggest corporate law. Yeah, working at a law firm can be tough, etc, but just because you don't like that, if you are doing well and getting great experience (which he presumably is as I presume he's working for one of the top firms, given you mentioned big pay, blah blah blah), then I would encourage a first alternative to getting into Corporate law. Pay isn't usually as much as the law firm, but can still be extremely lucrative and hours, etc, tend to be much better. Often times people go to work at those firms to eventually settle into that area.

 

I spent the first 8 years of my career busting my hump working 60 hours a week most weeks and 80-100 for months at a time, but always knew while certain aspects I didn't like, the long-term opportunities were great and there was an eventual light at the end of the tunnel when I was ready to cut back on the hours, etc (mainly when the kids came around). In the grand scheme of things, pretty small sacrifice to make to try and position yourself and ultimately your family as well as you can for the long-term.

 

Note: Unrelated side effect of it. I find that I complain less than almost anyone I know. People cry about working 42 hours or blah blah blah and It amazes me. They don't appreciate their free time, etc. When you work hard and work a lot, I think you come to better appreciate the free time and from my perspective, I did it because I wanted to (to move up, etc) not because i had to. Totally different story if I was working 2 full time minimum wage jobs to put food on a table (cause in that situation, there is a gun to your head to do it and provide where as in my situation, I felt that I can't complain because i am lucky to do what I do and I ultimately chose to do it; If I don't want to, I can always leave and go work somewhere else).

[Chisoxfn]

I've got friends who complain all the time about busy season as an accountant, just like going into law you pretty much expect these hours. It's much easier to think you can handle those hours then when you actually have to do it, plus your life may have changed drastically (significant other, family, etc).

 

Personally, I work in IT Security, part of that is being available for off hour work including an on call rotation. My friends give me grief when I saw I can't go out because I'm on call, but they'll complain how I make more money. I've got one friend in particular, she works as at a major TV channel company around ad sales (she essentially finds slots for her clients to air ads per their contracts), it's a strict 8 hr a day job. Meanwhile, I average about 50-55 hours a week (part of it is me doing extra out of my own accord, which has gotten me promoted and multiple raises) and I legitimately make double of what she does. She complains about money/being cheap all the time, but has more opportunities to go out/do things after work compared to me. Personally, I like making more money compared to having that extra free time at this stage in my life. My goal is to work extremely hard to solidify my career and to get me to where I want to go. Not that I'll be lazy later, but I don't want to hamper my future by not taking advantage of a time in my life where my one major responsibility is just work.

 

 

It's all about what you are willing to do and put up with, fortunately I find IT work to be a challenge and keep me interested even though the pay is what drew me to staying with it as a career.

Great post.

[Jake]

I have to tell you, I'm looking in a different location for apartments and I never saw a single one that didn't require the deposit alongside the application with the only way of getting it back being a rejected application.

[pettie4sox]

I have to tell you, I'm looking in a different location for apartments and I never saw a single one that didn't require the deposit alongside the application with the only way of getting it back being a rejected application.

 

Well what state are you in again?

[pettie4sox]

Back to this for a second, if they take the $80 or whatever "settlement" (I call it theft) you come up with, make sure your GF sends them a letter or a confirmation email explaining the deal and expressly stating that's all that she owes.

 

They should get the application fee since they ran a check on us. They gave her all of it back minus $280. I think now that she has her money she can be a little more aggressive?

[Jake]

Well what state are you in again?

 

OH

[greg775]

As far as the pay/lifestyle thing goes, I think that guy should do whatever he wants. HOWEVA, if he has law loans, suck it up for another year or whatever and pay those suckers off before moving on. If he's making bank without a wife or a kid, that's the perfect time to do it.

 

I'm in a spot where i'm not making what I probably should be making, but my firms practice and the people I work with are awesome. I have a relatively light case load, I have different kinds of cases, I can take off days here and there without totally screwing up my schedule. I probably work 45 hours max a week. Would an extra 10-15k really be worth not getting home to see my wife and kid until 8 every night? Nope.

See that's what I'm thinking he should do. Look for a better law firm. Your firm sounds great. Just because my cousin is getting worked hard doesn't mean there aren't better places out there. Also the fact his boss is giving him six fricking months leave of absence proves the boss must be a decent guy. Look, he is 29 years old. If I was to be a true mentor and I am not gonna go there, I'd say to him. "You are 29. You are making incredible money. You are not always going to have to work these crazy hours. Yes you have to travel and work on cases, but a lot of people LOVE travel. It can be fun to travel on the company dime. Being a physical therapist (as he wants to do) will require no travel to speak of. Any travel you do in life will be on your dime. Nobody said work was easy. You are 29 and the next 10 years of your life are gonna speed by. Enjoy being a lawyer. It's what you studied and what is paying you handsomely."

Would that advice be off base?

 

I was going to suggest corporate law. Yeah, working at a law firm can be tough, etc, but just because you don't like that, if you are doing well and getting great experience (which he presumably is as I presume he's working for one of the top firms, given you mentioned big pay, blah blah blah), then I would encourage a first alternative to getting into Corporate law. Pay isn't usually as much as the law firm, but can still be extremely lucrative and hours, etc, tend to be much better. Often times people go to work at those firms to eventually settle into that area.

 

I spent the first 8 years of my career busting my hump working 60 hours a week most weeks and 80-100 for months at a time, but always knew while certain aspects I didn't like, the long-term opportunities were great and there was an eventual light at the end of the tunnel when I was ready to cut back on the hours, etc (mainly when the kids came around). In the grand scheme of things, pretty small sacrifice to make to try and position yourself and ultimately your family as well as you can for the long-term.

 

Note: Unrelated side effect of it. I find that I complain less than almost anyone I know. People cry about working 42 hours or blah blah blah and It amazes me. They don't appreciate their free time, etc. When you work hard and work a lot, I think you come to better appreciate the free time and from my perspective, I did it because I wanted to (to move up, etc) not because i had to. Totally different story if I was working 2 full time minimum wage jobs to put food on a table (cause in that situation, there is a gun to your head to do it and provide where as in my situation, I felt that I can't complain because i am lucky to do what I do and I ultimately chose to do it; If I don't want to, I can always leave and go work somewhere else).

 

Great post. I agree with your philosphy on work/life in your last paragraph. I'm a little surprised my cousin doesn't like to travel. Yes it's work, but he's 29. I remember traveling a lot in my 20s and having a blast chasing women, etc., having fun on the road in clubs.

I'm pretty close to my cousin; that's why this is an emotional topic for me. We've all shut up and supported him.

[LittleHurt05]

Given how well your cousin has done, it sounds like he's got a good head on his shoulders. That makes me think you should just back off and leave him alone. The grass is always greener on the other side. You just see the money and think everything's gravy, sometimes there is more than that. If he truly doesn't like it, mental health trumps money. It's not uncommon in that industry to get worn out and leave. Given his education and work history, it seems like he'll end up doing very well whatever he puts his mind too.

[StrangeSox]

Traveling for work can get old fast. It's not the same as traveling for pleasure.

 

And if, as you say, life goes by fast, why spend it all working so much if you're not enjoying yourself? I appreciate my free time plenty without needing to routinely work more than 40 hours a week. Spending years working 60-100 hours sounds absolutely miserable, and that's with me generally enjoying what I do.

[Chisoxfn]

Traveling for work can get old fast. It's not the same as traveling for pleasure.

 

And if, as you say, life goes by fast, why spend it all working so much if you're not enjoying yourself? I appreciate my free time plenty without needing to routinely work more than 40 hours a week. Spending years working 60-100 hours sounds absolutely miserable, and that's with me generally enjoying what I do.

I completely agree. Traveling for work can be fun in small stints but when it is a regular occurrence it gets old. 3-4 times per year, to me, is the perfect amount of work travel.

[greg775]

Traveling for work can get old fast. It's not the same as traveling for pleasure.

 

And if, as you say, life goes by fast, why spend it all working so much if you're not enjoying yourself? I appreciate my free time plenty without needing to routinely work more than 40 hours a week. Spending years working 60-100 hours sounds absolutely miserable, and that's with me generally enjoying what I do.

 

I guess you are right but maybe this is a generational thing. With the unemployment rate so high and people losing their homes, etc., it makes me think people like my cousin who have put themselves thru school and gotten educated and now make a huge buck should just get used to the fact work is not fun. I am assuming when he's not traveling lawyers at least get weekends off most of the time.

I haven't asked him. Maybe I'm mistaken.

It seems like the way the job world works today, he's entering his prime money making years from 30 to 60. I'd assume law is different from many fields in which people over 50 aren't getting hired anymore. I'd guess a good lawyer can work til he dies in his 80s.

My concern is in today's job climate, how bad can being a six figure lawyer really be? It's not a sweatshop.

He's positioned himself to start raking in the money and chugging along the next many years to retirement. Starting over having to educate himself in a new field at 29 seems silly in today's horrific job environment.

Edited July 17, 2014 by greg775

[Chisoxfn]

I guess you are right but maybe this is a generational thing. With the unemployment rate so high and people losing their homes, etc., it makes me think people like my cousin who have put themselves thru school and gotten educated and now make a huge buck should just get used to the fact work is not fun. I am assuming when he's not traveling lawyers at least get weekends off most of the time.

I haven't asked him. Maybe I'm mistaken.

It seems like the way the job world works today, he's entering his prime money making years from 30 to 60. I'd assume law is different from many fields in which people over 50 aren't getting hired anymore. I'd guess a good lawyer can work til he dies in his 80s.

My concern is in today's job climate, how bad can being a six figure lawyer really be? It's not a sweatshop.

He's positioned himself to start raking in the money and chugging along the next many years to retirement. Starting over having to educate himself in a new field at 29 seems silly in today's horrific job environment.

You mentioned he is thinking of going into physical therapy. While he's less likely to make 200K plus (presume he's close to that number currently), he is looking at having earnings potential in the low 6 figures (maybe not out of the gate but in a major city if he does things right, I believe people start somewhere in the range of 75 - 100 or so).

[StrangeSox]

I completely agree. Traveling for work can be fun in small stints but when it is a regular occurrence it gets old. 3-4 times per year, to me, is the perfect amount of work travel.

There are definitely benefits. I just left the coast of Maine and now I'm in New Hampshire. Who knows when I'd have gotten to these states on my own, if ever. I've been to SoCal several times and I've spent a few weeks in SLO.

 

But I'm already in the middle of a two week trip and i might have to head out Washington state a few days after i get back. This is a heavy spurt for me, but some of my co-workers spend close to 150 nights in hotels a year. I got close to 100 myself a couple of years back.

[illinilaw08]

I guess you are right but maybe this is a generational thing. With the unemployment rate so high and people losing their homes, etc., it makes me think people like my cousin who have put themselves thru school and gotten educated and now make a huge buck should just get used to the fact work is not fun. I am assuming when he's not traveling lawyers at least get weekends off most of the time.

I haven't asked him. Maybe I'm mistaken.

It seems like the way the job world works today, he's entering his prime money making years from 30 to 60. I'd assume law is different from many fields in which people over 50 aren't getting hired anymore. I'd guess a good lawyer can work til he dies in his 80s.

My concern is in today's job climate, how bad can being a six figure lawyer really be? It's not a sweatshop.

He's positioned himself to start raking in the money and chugging along the next many years to retirement. Starting over having to educate himself in a new field at 29 seems silly in today's horrific job environment.

 

Lots of big law firms, especially in cities like New York and Chicago, are sweatshops. Just sweatshops that pay well.

 

Lawyers working 80 hour weeks are definitely in on weekends.

 

Big law, in big cities, rarely cares for "work life balance."

[greg775]

You mentioned he is thinking of going into physical therapy. While he's less likely to make 200K plus (presume he's close to that number currently), he is looking at having earnings potential in the low 6 figures (maybe not out of the gate but in a major city if he does things right, I believe people start somewhere in the range of 75 - 100 or so).

That'd be nice. I hope he continues to have a passion for phys therapy as he moves onward. I can see how it'd be rewarding.

 

Lots of big law firms, especially in cities like New York and Chicago, are sweatshops. Just sweatshops that pay well.

 

Lawyers working 80 hour weeks are definitely in on weekends.

 

Big law, in big cities, rarely cares for "work life balance."

I did not know this stuff. Interesting.

[Texsox]

1. About a year ago I went to an oil change place and gave them my keys and waited.
2. Their attendant backed my truck into another vehicle.
3. The oil change place refused to pay
4. My insurance refused to pay
5. I just received a notice of being sued for the amount.

 

Seems that by giving them the keys I authorized the idiot to drive my vehicle making me responsible.

 

Yeah, media war begins next week. Fortunately two of my very best friends deal with the local media on an everyday basis and are hooking me up with the local "on your side" reporters.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

1. About a year ago I went to an oil change place and gave them my keys and waited.
2. Their attendant backed my truck into another vehicle.
3. The oil change place refused to pay
4. My insurance refused to pay
5. I just received a notice of being sued for the amount.

 

Seems that by giving them the keys I authorized the idiot to drive my vehicle making me responsible.

 

Yeah, media war begins next week. Fortunately two of my very best friends deal with the local media on an everyday basis and are hooking me up with the local "on your side" reporters.

 

 

Your insurance company should be defending you. If not, get a lawyer. They are breaching the policy.

[Soxbadger]

Submit the lawsuit to your insurance. If they refuse to cover you could bring your insurance company in as a third party defendant.

[greg775]

1. About a year ago I went to an oil change place and gave them my keys and waited.
2. Their attendant backed my truck into another vehicle.
3. The oil change place refused to pay
4. My insurance refused to pay
5. I just received a notice of being sued for the amount.

 

Seems that by giving them the keys I authorized the idiot to drive my vehicle making me responsible.

 

Yeah, media war begins next week. Fortunately two of my very best friends deal with the local media on an everyday basis and are hooking me up with the local "on your side" reporters.

 

That's just s***ty that you are responsible. What are you supposed to do? Whenever you go to a place like that you demand to drive your own car? They'd not let you and you could never get an oil change. Insurance has to take a role and sue the oil change place. They should be paying. Their employee wrecked your car.

That's cool you have gone to the media. They should attack the case. I'd suspect the oil change place won't want the horrid publicity.

 

[Texsox]

There is a specific exclusion in my policy, (which is standard btw in almost all auto policies), which excludes coverage when at an auto shops. This has already passed through my insurance carrier. And btw, I really didn't want my insurance company paying for it either.

 

Ironically enough though I have a personal liability rider in a renter's policy that may cover me. I say ironically because they are all with the same carrier, just different divisions.

[cabiness42]

1. About a year ago I went to an oil change place and gave them my keys and waited.
2. Their attendant backed my truck into another vehicle.
3. The oil change place refused to pay
4. My insurance refused to pay
5. I just received a notice of being sued for the amount.

 

Seems that by giving them the keys I authorized the idiot to drive my vehicle making me responsible.

 

Yeah, media war begins next week. Fortunately two of my very best friends deal with the local media on an everyday basis and are hooking me up with the local "on your side" reporters.

 

 

What was the cost of the repairs? If it's < $1000, I'd let the oil change company know that I can easily cost them that much business through negative publicity, etc.

[Texsox]

What was the cost of the repairs? If it's

 

$1300 and I informed the manager that unless they take care of it I will be handing it over to my attorney. Not a threat, I've already contacted my attorney.

[DrunkBomber]

Successfully sued my property management company for towing my car out of my privately owned parking spot, that was fun.

[Jenksismyhero]

There is a specific exclusion in my policy, (which is standard btw in almost all auto policies), which excludes coverage when at an auto shops. This has already passed through my insurance carrier. And btw, I really didn't want my insurance company paying for it either.

 

Ironically enough though I have a personal liability rider in a renter's policy that may cover me. I say ironically because they are all with the same carrier, just different divisions.

 

I find this incredibly difficult to believe. Maybe for damage done as a result of the repairs made to the car, but not damage done by your car to another car. The dude driving it was a permissive user of the vehicle. It's the same as if you gave the keys to a friend or family member and they got in an accident with your car. The insurance company can't just deny coverage based on that.

 

 

[greg775]

I see Arias is going to represent herself at her sentencing trial which is a full fledged trial. Do judges look down on this bulls***? Is she going to embarrass herself and pretty much assure herself of the death penalty by doing this?

I'd think judges would not like a person who knows not what she is doing be her own attorney.