Rosenthal: Tanaka to Yankees

[Eminor3rd]

Yeah that's what I'm saying. The league is terrible. Our failed prospects here are better IMO.

 

Lol, based on what?

[pettie4sox]

Yeah that's what I'm saying. The league is terrible. Our failed prospects here are better IMO.

 

Yeah you just went full blown ******* with that post.

[pettie4sox]

Japan actually eliminated Team USA in the previous WBC with the failed mlb prospects on that team. So there goes the neighborhood.

[BlackSox13]

While I don't agree with TUC's perspective on the talent level of the Japanese league, I'm not going to flame the guy over his opinion either. The last few posts are what people referred to in this thread here...

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90868

Outside of the Japanese talent level, TUC does bring up good points of concern with Tanaka's splitter/forkball, pitch count and projected contract.

Edited December 30, 2013 by StRoostifer

[The Ultimate Champion]

The Japanese league sucks. Put whatever marks on it you want, they still suck. There are a few good guys who can play in the Majors, and a scant few who can do so at a very high level. But when you look at your average AA league you find lots of seriously talented prospects, most of whom will never make it of course, but there's athletes and ceiling there all over the place. And much of the AAAA players dominating the AAA level in America are at least experienced somewhat at the MLB level, many of them veterans who would be arb eligible should they get another shot in the bigs. There is great parity there & there's a pretty large talent pool of players who are fringey 25-man roster types who can't get a spot on an MLB team in a given year but who IMO would beat the s*** out of the league in Japan should a ton of these guys all go over.

 

Of course there are Americans who will play in Japan or elsewhere but the money has to be there, as well as the playing time, to provide the incentive for a guy to leave or move his family that great of a distance & have no assurances of a job in MLB the following season. But yeah, if Japanese teams started buying up a bunch of fringey MLBers I bet those guys would go over there and beat the hell out of that league & it would be a total embarrassment to Japanese baseball. That's probably why it would never happen, because it would be embarrassing to have 1/2 gaijen (sp?) teams made up of guys who really don't want to be there in the first place with talented ethnic Japanese players failing to crack the roster because they're not good enough to beat out some teams ex-bust prospect.

 

Call me a hater, I'll put my balls out there, and if that excites yall & you feel like being flamers well I don't know what to say other than the fact that where I'm from we have a saying "If you're coming on, come on!" And if you know where that's from I'll give you an internet cookie. And if not you don't get one. Unless you agree with me then you will get one.

[The Ultimate Champion]

While I don't agree with TUC's perspective on the talent level of the Japanese league, I'm not going to flame the guy over his opinion either. The last few posts are what people referred to in this thread here...

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90868

Outside of the Japanese talent level, TUC does bring up good points of concern with Tanaka's splitter/forkball, pitch count and projected contract.

 

Thank you for being my friend.

Edited December 30, 2013 by The Ultimate Champion

[witesoxfan]

The Japanese league sucks. Put whatever marks on it you want, they still suck. There are a few good guys who can play in the Majors, and a scant few who can do so at a very high level. But when you look at your average AA league you find lots of seriously talented prospects, most of whom will never make it of course, but there's athletes and ceiling there all over the place. And much of the AAAA players dominating the AAA level in America are at least experienced somewhat at the MLB level, many of them veterans who would be arb eligible should they get another shot in the bigs. There is great parity there & there's a pretty large talent pool of players who are fringey 25-man roster types who can't get a spot on an MLB team in a given year but who IMO would beat the s*** out of the league in Japan should a ton of these guys all go over.

 

Of course there are Americans who will play in Japan or elsewhere but the money has to be there, as well as the playing time, to provide the incentive for a guy to leave or move his family that great of a distance & have no assurances of a job in MLB the following season. But yeah, if Japanese teams started buying up a bunch of fringey MLBers I bet those guys would go over there and beat the hell out of that league & it would be a total embarrassment to Japanese baseball. That's probably why it would never happen, because it would be embarrassing to have 1/2 gaijen (sp?) teams made up of guys who really don't want to be there in the first place with talented ethnic Japanese players failing to crack the roster because they're not good enough to beat out some teams ex-bust prospect.

 

Call me a hater, I'll put my balls out there, and if that excites yall & you feel like being flamers well I don't know what to say other than the fact that where I'm from we have a saying "If you're coming on, come on!" And if you know where that's from I'll give you an internet cookie. And if not you don't get one. Unless you agree with me then you will get one.

 

It's a different game, but they're still plenty talented. And you see fringe MLB players both succeed and fail all the time, whereas these same guys destroy AA and AAA.

 

Like I said, I think you're way wrong. You have the right to believe what you want to believe, and it's not really worth arguing anymore.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Japan actually eliminated Team USA in the previous WBC with the failed mlb prospects on that team. So there goes the neighborhood.

Great, so you take a very small percentage of the absolute best guys there who are MLB-capable (just like Cuba) and you have a fair fight. How does that go against anything I've said? I never said all Japanese players suck, I said the league sucks. I'll stand by that & you can hate. Or I can hate. Or we can both hate. Or you can agree & we can hug.

[The Ultimate Champion]

It's a different game, but they're still plenty talented. And you see fringe MLB players both succeed and fail all the time, whereas these same guys destroy AA and AAA.

 

Like I said, I think you're way wrong. You have the right to believe what you want to believe, and it's not really worth arguing anymore.

I agree, not worth arguing about. Doesn't matter anyway, this thread is about Tanaka & we can all agree he is going to be good enough to play here at a high level. The dollars and cents, the years, injury potential, etc. add quite a bit to the equation however.

Edited December 30, 2013 by The Ultimate Champion

[pettie4sox]

We can agree to disagree but I still think you're way off base and sound ignorant as hell.

Edited December 30, 2013 by pettie4sox

[pettie4sox]

You sound like a hater plain and simple. I can't just let this go.

[pettie4sox]

You have no stats to back up your claim. You just spout off hate. You probably got dumped by a Japanese girl or went to Japan and had a terrible experience. That's your fault for thinking you could go over there and be an American.

 

Too bad oh sad.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I'll agree that I'm a hater, that I'm ignorant, I'll agree to any of that, just not the part about Japanese baseball not totally sucking. We'll have to agree to shelve that point of contention I am afraid.

[pettie4sox]

I'll agree that I'm a hater, that I'm ignorant, I'll agree to any of that, just not the part about Japanese baseball not totally sucking. We'll have to agree to shelve that point of contention I am afraid.

 

That's fine but I won't be taking your posts seriously in the future.

Edited December 30, 2013 by pettie4sox

[The Ultimate Champion]

^Join the club buddy.

[pettie4sox]

Yeah because I spout egregious claims all the time without backing them up.

 

Just stop man, you're looking more and more foolish.

[The Ultimate Champion]

It seems like it is very difficult to find historical stats on Japanese baseball period, other than the fact that hitters like Casey McGehee can look like Miguel Cabrera over there. Our own Shingo didn't exactly look like Mariano or Trevor Hoffman or Lee Smith or Dennis Eckersly did he?

 

Your argument is what? That the league is AAA or something? Where's your stats statman. Go find some reference and I'll look at it. Your comparison to the WBC is completely irrelevant to the overall quality of the league.

[southsider2k5]

That is enough of the insults. You guys can debate the topic all you want, no more name calling.

[pettie4sox]

Where are earth was the name calling?

Edited December 30, 2013 by pettie4sox

[pettie4sox]

It seems like it is very difficult to find historical stats on Japanese baseball period, other than the fact that hitters like Casey McGehee can look like Miguel Cabrera over there. Our own Shingo didn't exactly look like Mariano or Trevor Hoffman or Lee Smith or Dennis Eckersly did he?

 

Your argument is what? That the league is AAA or something? Where's your stats statman. Go find some reference and I'll look at it. Your comparison to the WBC is completely irrelevant to the overall quality of the league.

 

First and foremost, I've seen both MLB games and NBP games live and on TV. Unfortunately, you have the burden of proof due to the fact you made a claim that the NPB sucks. I am stating it doesn't. This is subjective but all in all Japan produces solid players. I'm not sure what your standards are but you keep parroting that it just sucks and AA players would go over there and crush that league which couldn't be further from the truth.

 

So yeah I want you to back your claims. I gave the WBC because usually the USA sends a bunch of scrubs MLB players/college players but they can never seem to win it. These are the AA players (probably greater than and lower than players as well) that you said would crush the NPB. Japan has won twice already and was on the fringe of a 3rd. Probably not by your standards since from your posts you seem pretty adamant which is strange to me but your opinion nevertheless.

Edited December 30, 2013 by pettie4sox

[BlackSox13]

 

Thank you for being my friend.

I think we all need to remember were fans of the same team and are equally entitled to our opinions/ perspectives.

Edited December 30, 2013 by StRoostifer

[The Ultimate Champion]

Why would I have the burden of changing your opinion? WTF are you talking about? You love Japanese baseball and are offended by my comments. Too bad. Why does it matter that I assume your opinion? Never once did I say Tanaka sucks or that there aren't some guys out there that are good. Good to me means quality MLB players or prospects. Lacking that, I believe they suck.

 

And I looked for stats, they're hard to find. Most of the guys who come from Japan end up as role players and that's usually the best they've got. In return, a few fringey guys go over there and dominate on a regular basis.

 

The best proof I can come up with I guess is simply to look at how much money Tanaka is going to get & how little money is out there for anyone else. Who else is there? If the league was full of talented guys then more teams would be posting players. It's Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major...yers_from_Japan but there are 8 guys listed as being currently on MLB rosters. 8 f***in guys homeboy. MLB teams give millions of dollars every year to 16-year-olds out of buscone camps in the Dominican but somehow can't seem to come up with all these posting fees. Who was that guy Oakland didn't even want? They bid nothing for someone just to check in, and then when they got the bid they didn't even want the guy.

[pettie4sox]

Why would I have the burden of changing your opinion? WTF are you talking about? You love Japanese baseball and are offended by my comments. Too bad. Why does it matter that I assume your opinion? Never once did I say Tanaka sucks or that there aren't some guys out there that are good. Good to me means quality MLB players or prospects. Lacking that, I believe they suck.

 

And I looked for stats, they're hard to find. Most of the guys who come from Japan end up as role players and that's usually the best they've got. In return, a few fringey guys go over there and dominate on a regular basis.

 

The best proof I can come up with I guess is simply to look at how much money Tanaka is going to get & how little money is out there for anyone else. Who else is there? If the league was full of talented guys then more teams would be posting players. It's Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major...yers_from_Japan but there are 8 guys listed as being currently on MLB rosters. 8 f***in guys homeboy. MLB teams give millions of dollars every year to 16-year-olds out of buscone camps in the Dominican but somehow can't seem to come up with all these posting fees. Who was that guy Oakland didn't even want? They bid nothing for someone just to check in, and then when they got the bid they didn't even want the guy.

 

I'm not really offended. I'm just shocked how outlandish your comments were. You're still not giving examples so this is moot. You do have the burden of proof because you made the egregious claim. You probably don't know much about Japanese culture but most Japanese people like playing in Japan. Most of the players that come to MLB are older to the upwards of 30. They come over when their on the back burner of their careers. They feel like they want more competition which the MLB is so they try their luck here. There are a lot of bad baseball players in the MLB and I think it's disingenuous that you believe that quality NPB players couldn't hack it over here (which there are plenty of by the way). I'm sure Tyler Flowers, an MLB player would go to Japan and crush them like the insignificant cockroaches they are.

[Eminor3rd]

It seems like it is very difficult to find historical stats on Japanese baseball period, other than the fact that hitters like Casey McGehee can look like Miguel Cabrera over there. Our own Shingo didn't exactly look like Mariano or Trevor Hoffman or Lee Smith or Dennis Eckersly did he?

 

Your argument is what? That the league is AAA or something? Where's your stats statman. Go find some reference and I'll look at it. Your comparison to the WBC is completely irrelevant to the overall quality of the league.

 

People don't need stats to disprove baseless claims, people need stats to support their otherwise baseless claims.

 

The "experts" in the media commonly refer to the NPB as being roughly equivalent if slightly superior to AAA baseball. From my personal consumption (admittedly mostly from memory of podcasts), sabermetricians and talking heads agree on this point. If you want to claim a different opinion than status quo, you should be the one providing evidence.

[The Ultimate Champion]

People don't need stats to disprove baseless claims, people need stats to support their otherwise baseless claims.

 

The "experts" in the media commonly refer to the NPB as being roughly equivalent if slightly superior to AAA baseball. From my personal consumption (admittedly mostly from memory of podcasts), sabermetricians and talking heads agree on this point. If you want to claim a different opinion than status quo, you should be the one providing evidence.

See, they have their opinions, that's fine, but what you just posted is equally as baseless. I could just as easily turn around and exclaim shock at the notion of your general/average NPB players being at the same level as your American & Latin players in the high minors in the MLB system, much less actually superior. In fact, I am going to.

 

What evidence do you have that the Japanese players in NPB came up facing an equal or greater level of comp as those in our AAA system currently? Players here have had to mostly work straight from Rookie or Low-A ball up through multiple levels before eventually topping at as ST invitees or 23-25th type roster players. Think seriously for a second about all the players in MiLB baseball, from the all the Summer League teams and organizational camps to 2 levels of Rookie ball to 3 levels of A ball to AA to AAA, and consider just how many of these players there are. Then consider the pool they come from. These players have come from all over the world, some are very serious athletes as well, and some of these guys have been given substantial signing bonuses which I am sure would rank well in comparison to some of the salaries in Japan alone. Consider how many if not most of the players here have been scouted by multiple organizations intensely, each organization of course being worth on average what, a few hundred million dollars? This is big business over here. There's a lot a players picked from a lot of places, there's a lot of money in the scouting, the signing, the development, the the training, etc. of these guys. And for someone to just run out there and say that the NPB guys are the same level or better than the AAA/fringe MLB players he had better have some real proof. To me, making a statement like that shows a total lack of appreciation for what players who have made it that far in MLB's system have actually accomplished.

 

For anyone to make such a statement and be accurate they'd need some real data that *does not* involve NPB stats which of course prove little to nothing. I want to know what the average FB velocity is over there, I want to know what the average breaking balls look like, the bat speed, the time out of the box to first, the type of thing a scout would look for. Otherwise the claim that NPB is as good or better is just as baseless. Some "expert" number crunchers know what, exactly? Amateur free agents don't get signed by numbers, they get signed by ability, and you look to the numbers for support. If you want to come up with a way that actually measures the talent level somewhat objectively then sure you can go ahead & say they're as good as our AAA guys if that ends up being the case. But I would bet on the contrary, that if you wanted to create a league in NPB that would be comparable to the AAA level you'd probably have to contract several teams over there and squeeze the rosters quite a bit.

 

And lastly I don't buy for a second that more players don't come over here just because they want to stay in Japan. I'd say it's because MLB teams won't pay them enough and guarantee them enough to make it worth their while to leave their family behind and/or take their kids out of school and move halfway across the globe. But there's a price for everything. Darvish was talked about for a good year or two before he was posted, and supposedly he didn't want to come over here. That kind of money changes things, and there would be more of it handed out if MLB teams figured it was worth it.