Sox should trade for Samardzija

[Balta1701]

Talks ended with Atlanta when they asked for BJ Upton or Jason Heyward.

Wait...WHAT?

[hammerhead johnson]

We all knew that he was talking about Justin.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Wait...WHAT?

 

 

Justin Upton.

[witesoxfan]

Yes, sorry, Justin. I was even trying to think of the good one and got them confused.

[witesoxfan]

If the reality is true than Theo is losing friends quickly. I think a good quality of a GM is to treat other GM's fairly and not waste everyone's time trying to out-GM the other guy.

 

Hahn got less than Santiago but more for Reed thus he got what he should have. I think that goes along way in dealing with other GM's.

 

I think that's been the biggest problem of Theo and Hoyer with the Cubs. The only time they will make a move is when they feel they are fleecing the other team or getting a great deal. Occasionally, you have to throw a bone to other GMs...consider it an investment. People say "the Sox could have gotten more for Santiago" but, first of all, maybe they couldn't. Second of all, maybe the DBacks felt they could have gotten more out of Davidson too. It's certainly possible they had discussed that move previously and that was why the Sox threw in Brandon Jacobs too.

 

The politics and networking of GMing, in my mind, is just as vital to being successful as acquiring the talent in the first place. You can't have one without the other.

 

I think Theo is going to fail with the Cubs, even if their system is so good right now.

[Balta1701]

I think Theo is going to fail with the Cubs, even if their system is so good right now.

I can't fathom how they would be hesitant to move some of these guys for pitching when David Price is available.

[LittleHurt05]

I think Theo is going to fail with the Cubs, even if their system is so good right now.

 

I can't get over how the #1 priority has become maximizing ballpark revenue over improving the ballclub. I realize how important revenue is, but these are the Chicago Cubs not the Tampa Rays. People come to the park even with bad teams. It's a very popular franchise in the 3rd largest city. They can support a high payroll easily. Maybe Ricketts is in bad financial shape since buying the team?

[GreenSox]

I think that's been the biggest problem of Theo and Hoyer with the Cubs. The only time they will make a move is when they feel they are fleecing the other team or getting a great deal. Occasionally, you have to throw a bone to other GMs...consider it an investment. People say "the Sox could have gotten more for Santiago" but, first of all, maybe they couldn't. Second of all, maybe the DBacks felt they could have gotten more out of Davidson too. It's certainly possible they had discussed that move previously and that was why the Sox threw in Brandon Jacobs too.

 

The politics and networking of GMing, in my mind, is just as vital to being successful as acquiring the talent in the first place. You can't have one without the other.

 

I think Theo is going to fail with the Cubs, even if their system is so good right now.

Yea, I always thought that Kenny gave more than he got. The Swisher trade to Oakland had one prospect too many; should we really have had to throw in Holmberg to get Jackson who was being salary dumped? We gave Jackson to Toronto, which enabled them to get the CF they wanted. On the other hand, they were generous with us when we dumped Frasor back on them.

So maybe they do this so that avenues for trades are always open. So far, I think all of Hahn's trades have been within a close range of fair value on both sides of the exchange...which is how it should be.

[witesoxfan]

Yea, I always thought that Kenny gave more than he got. The Swisher trade to Oakland had one prospect too many; should we really have had to throw in Holmberg to get Jackson who was being salary dumped? We gave Jackson to Toronto, which enabled them to get the CF they wanted. On the other hand, they were generous with us when we dumped Frasor back on them.

So maybe they do this so that avenues for trades are always open. So far, I think all of Hahn's trades have been within a close range of fair value on both sides of the exchange...which is how it should be.

 

Williams absolutely "trade-raped" Gillick and the Phillies in the Freddy deal, so later that summer, when the Sox were awful and the Phillies contending, Williams gave them Iguchi for a bone.

[cabiness42]

Yea, I always thought that Kenny gave more than he got. The Swisher trade to Oakland had one prospect too many; should we really have had to throw in Holmberg to get Jackson who was being salary dumped? We gave Jackson to Toronto, which enabled them to get the CF they wanted. On the other hand, they were generous with us when we dumped Frasor back on them.

So maybe they do this so that avenues for trades are always open. So far, I think all of Hahn's trades have been within a close range of fair value on both sides of the exchange...which is how it should be.

 

Did you not watch any games pitched by Gavin Floyd or John Danks in the last 7 years?

[GreenSox]

Did you not watch any games pitched by Gavin Floyd or John Danks in the last 7 years?

I said he frequently gave more in trade value than he got; I didn't say he didn't win any.

 

FWIW, McCarthy has a lower WHIP and ERA than Danks.

[southsider2k5]

I said he frequently gave more in trade value than he got; I didn't say he didn't win any.

 

FWIW, McCarthy has a lower WHIP and ERA than Danks.

 

That is some fancy cherry picking there.

[RegionSox]

If you look at WAR, Danks has a career WAR of 20.6 and McCarthy has 9.1

[southsider2k5]

If you look at WAR, Danks has a career WAR of 20.6 and McCarthy has 9.1

 

Even after the shoulder surgery, Danks has pitched almost two full season more IP.

[GreenSox]

And Danks has made over twice as much money.

Danks has been the better pitcher, but I'd sure like to see him pitch a lot better this year.

[witesoxfan]

And Danks has made over twice as much money.

Danks has been the better pitcher, but I'd sure like to see him pitch a lot better this year.

 

He made the money based on what he did during his first 6 years as a starter. McCarthy was injured with shoulders and obliques and what have you until he altered his mechanics to remain healthy. There's no question who won that trade.

[RockRaines]

I can't get over how the #1 priority has become maximizing ballpark revenue over improving the ballclub. I realize how important revenue is, but these are the Chicago Cubs not the Tampa Rays. People come to the park even with bad teams. It's a very popular franchise in the 3rd largest city. They can support a high payroll easily. Maybe Ricketts is in bad financial shape since buying the team?

Their owners are incredibly leveraged on the Cubs. They need CASH FLOW.

[witesoxfan]

This McCarthy-Danks thing is a silly argument. Through their rookie contracts Danks outperformed McCarthy heavily. After their rookie contracts McCarthy started putting it together and Danks got hurt.

 

That's a very short-sighted way of looking at it that does not involve the initial statement in question itself.

 

McCarthy is on his 3rd different team since the trade, 4th overall. The statement was "Williams did not win trades and gave up too much talent." Fact is, the Sox did NOT give up too much talent and in fact received far more than they would have with Danks.

 

[Kyyle23]

McCarthy really hasnt remained healthy anywhere he has been. His Oakland season was cut short by a freak injury, but last year he missed a while with the Dbacks

[Quin]

Kenny Williams trades definitively won:

 

Borchard for Thornton

Freddy Garcia trade

Peavy trade

Youkilis trade

Contreras trade

Danks - McCarthy trade

 

Kenny Williams trades arguably won:

 

Edwin Jackson - Daniel Hudson trade

Javy Vazquez trade

Thome trade

Ken Griffey Jr. trade

 

Kenny Williams trades neither win nor lost:

 

Mark Teahen trade (Fields and Getz are hot garbage, so it was lateral)

Mike Sirotka trade

Liriano trade

Jon Garland trade

 

Trades Williams lost:

 

Nick Swisher trades 1 & 2

 

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting a couple, but feel free to debate about how Kenny gave up too much other than the awful Swisher deals.

 

[ILMOU]

Kenny Williams trades definitively won:

 

Borchard for Thornton

Freddy Garcia trade

Peavy trade

Youkilis trade

Contreras trade

Danks - McCarthy trade

 

Kenny Williams trades arguably won:

 

Edwin Jackson - Daniel Hudson trade

Javy Vazquez trade

Thome trade

Ken Griffey Jr. trade

 

Kenny Williams trades neither win nor lost:

 

Mark Teahen trade (Fields and Getz are hot garbage, so it was lateral)

Mike Sirotka trade

Liriano trade

Jon Garland trade

 

Trades Williams lost:

 

Nick Swisher trades 1 & 2

 

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting a couple, but feel free to debate about how Kenny gave up too much other than the awful Swisher deals.

 

TCQ, Freddy for Gavin and Aaron Miles for Uribe also big wins. He won much more than he lost. His non-trade acquisitions, Dye, AJP, Lexi are also better than most. How good could we have been in his tenure if we actually had developed position players?

[Rowand44]

I probably hated the BMac-Danks trade more than anyone when it happened but that ended up being lopsided in our favor.

 

The Huddy-Jackson trade to this day still makes 0 sense to me.

[Quin]

I probably hated the BMac-Danks trade more than anyone when it happened but that ended up being lopsided in our favor.

 

The Huddy-Jackson trade to this day still makes 0 sense to me.

 

Yet we somehow won that one as well. Remember, got Webb and Jaye in that.

[Rowand44]

Yet we somehow won that one as well. Remember, got Webb and Jaye in that.

We got them in the Jason Frasor trade and gave up Holmberg along with Huddy.

 

Even if you just look at the 1.5 years that Jackson was here, Huddy out produced him. Enter into the equation the amount of years Huddy was under contract(yes I know he's been hurt), the fact that Hudson had to have had a ton of value at that point and we gave up another good arm in the deal? Yuck.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Rowand44

[The Ultimate Champion]

I probably hated the BMac-Danks trade more than anyone when it happened but that ended up being lopsided in our favor.

 

The Huddy-Jackson trade to this day still makes 0 sense to me.

We were trying to win. Jackson, even as a 3/4, has the stuff to completely dominate a game. Kenny was thinking playoffs & if you get a guy like Jackson hot at the right time you can do damage in the postseason. Hudson was a rookie who of course ended up getting hurt. It's ridiculous that that trade was b****ed about so much back then & it's confusing to me how any knowledgeable Sox fan wouldn't understand the reasoning for the deal.

 

The worst move Kenny Williams ever made was the Mark Teahen trade and then extension. He was a non-tender candidate on one of the very worst franchises in baseball, and not only did he give up 2 players, he also extended the guy for 2 more years at an annual value more than what he would have commanded as a free agent. The Dunn signing didn't work, nor did the first Swisher deal where he gave up Gio, nor did flyers on Sisco and Aardsma, etc. but all those moves were good, logical baseball moves that went bad. There was never any excuse for that Teahen deal.

 

The worst *pure move* the Sox made during KW's tenure was opting not to bring back Jim Thome for $1M and going with a Kotsay-Jones platoon at DH, and the close second worst pure move was not firing Ozzie when he needed to go. But I give KW a free pass on both of those because that was obviously all Jerry letting Ozzie have input and hoping that Ozzie would still work out.