Football Head Injuries

[dasox24]

My son played from the ages of 6-12. He is a bigger, quick kid so he always played center/nose tackle. He got bored with just hitting and watching the ball. Since the age of 12, it's been nothing but lacrosse where everyone gets to play the ball, hit and run around.

Lacrosse was always my best sport (even if I like football more). And actually, I am a NCAA DII/DIII lacrosse ref. Because of all of this concussion stuff in football, there has been a huge emphasis on cleaning up hitting in lacrosse. Any high hits (to the head) result in a 2-3 minute non-releasable penalty. And could lead to ejection depending on the severity. Basically the same as the NCAA did with the targeting rule in football. Of course, you probably already know this. Anyway, glad to hear he likes lacrosse. It's a great sport.

[iamshack]

It is not arbitrary. This is like smoking in the 1980s. We now have a pretty firm grasp on what we are talking about here.

Yes, it is arbitrary.

 

Is there data which shows children playing pee wee football or pop warner football are suffering from cte or some other significant health affects down the road as adolescents or adults? Do we know if these same children are suffering from adverse health affects from other sports or other activities? Can my child play touch or flag football and escape some of these potential adverse health affects? At what age is playing football the most dangerous or carry the most risk?

 

The questions can go on and on.

 

Is football more dangerous than not playing football? What are the health benefits from the increased exercise and activity as a result of playing football versus playing video games? What are the social benefits of being a member of a team versus being isolated at home or not exposed to as many children in the peer group?

 

It's an arbitrary decision.

[southsider2k5]

Yes, it is arbitrary.

 

Is there data which shows children playing pee wee football or pop warner football are suffering from cte or some other significant health affects down the road as adolescents or adults? Do we know if these same children are suffering from adverse health affects from other sports or other activities? Can my child play touch or flag football and escape some of these potential adverse health affects? At what age is playing football the most dangerous or carry the most risk?

 

The questions can go on and on.

 

Is football more dangerous than not playing football? What are the health benefits from the increased exercise and activity as a result of playing football versus playing video games? What are the social benefits of being a member of a team versus being isolated at home or not exposed to as many children in the peer group?

 

It's an arbitrary decision.

 

The frontline study sited a kid who had barely played HS football who was showing CTE.

[ptatc]

Last I saw, the group hired to investigate brains of ex-football players said 18 of 19 autopsies brains had CTE. Do you as a professional have access to other studies that aren't as compelling for CTE? I'd be curious to hear if there is another side to this.

There are other studies done on individuals similar to this. So far they are similar in results. The post mortem found CTE in some, not in others. There are limitations in all of this. There is still no causal effect linking CTE and any previous symptoms or specific things like alzheimer's or parkinson's rate. The primary limitation is you can only do it postmortem so even if there is a link, we don't know if it takes 30 years of hitting to cause significant symptoms or 5. Once they find a way to evaluate it in a living person we will have a better idea.

 

There has been a lot of concussion research lately and much better medical procedures with them. It's the idea of trauma without significant concussion symptoms that is still unknown. I'm not saying there isn't any. I'm just saying that using the current research as a reason to absolutely not let someone play is over reacting. If someone doesn't want their kids to play because they don't want the injuries, that's fine. We know that the most significant injuries ( not thing like sprained ankles) occur in football. However, to use this research to say kids shouldn't play football due to cumulative head injuries is just inaccurrate.

[ptatc]

It is not arbitrary. This is like smoking in the 1980s. We now have a pretty firm grasp on what we are talking about here.

Not really as far as cumulative head trauma is concerned.

[ptatc]

Im not sure that I am the best comparison for what people should do. But I do wear my seat belt, I try and avoid completely unnecessary risks, but I dont find sports to be a completely unnecessary risk.

 

 

 

 

Its the same theory. You either run the numbers and create a baseline that is unacceptable risk. If football is above that threshold any non-necessary activity that is more risky than football should also be.

 

IE You may need to drive a car to get to work. But do you really need to take your kid in a car for a ride to a baseball game, if there is a higher risk your child will die in the car getting there than playing football?

I cant answer that question for you, I can only say that I accept a certain level of risk in life and I will allow my child the same.

This is what every parent should do. It's just that the current literature doesn't support anything for kids and cumulative head trauma without concussion symptoms. Once concussive symptoms appear the literature is fairly solid.

[ptatc]

The frontline study sited a kid who had barely played HS football who was showing CTE.

I don't believe this is accurrate. At least from the studies I've read, CTE can only be diagnosed post mortem. Even if it did I still haven't seen the link or correlation.

[southsider2k5]

I don't believe this is accurrate. At least from the studies I've read, CTE can only be diagnosed post mortem. Even if it did I still haven't seen the link or correlation.

 

It was an 18 year old who died (committed suicide I believe, maybe someone else who saw the episode remembers better than I).

[StrangeSox]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sp...oncussion-risk/

 

Others have suggested a much more direct link. As FRONTLINE reported in a recent investigation into the NFL’s concussion crisis, researchers led by Dr. Ann McKee at Boston University have discovered CTE in the brains of dozens of deceased football players. Among the youngest players found to have had the disease were 18-year-old Eric Pelly, who played a number of sports including football, and Owen Thomas, a college football player who hanged himself at the age of 21.

 

eta: Eric Pelly died after receiving a concussion playing rugby, but he also played football.

Edited December 19, 2013 by StrangeSox

[ptatc]

It was an 18 year old who died (committed suicide I believe, maybe someone else who saw the episode remembers better than I).

Got it. Makes sense then. Still need to look at symptoms and other variables. This is why single case studies are considered very low on the research hierarchy.

[iamshack]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sp...oncussion-risk/

I dunno, this is just not enough for me to tell my kid he can't play pop warner football.

[ptatc]

It was an 18 year old who died (committed suicide I believe, maybe someone else who saw the episode remembers better than I).

The key to this study is still linking concussions to degenerative brain symptoms later in life. I don't think most people would argue that multiple concussions would do this even though the link is still very thin based on all of the research.

where the true discussion lies in that idea that cumulative head trauma without concussion symptoms causes CTE or degenerative problems later in life.

[Texsox]

I wonder if those that are saying they wouldn't say no to football would say no to anything their child wants to do? And what that might be?

[ptatc]

I dunno, this is just not enough for me to tell my kid he can't play pop warner football.

It shouldn't be. It does show that if the kids plays and has multiple concussions without allowing the symptoms to go away before returning is probably going to cause degenerative brain problems later in life. However, any parent should hold their kids out of sports with concussion symptoms and not allow them to return until the symptoms are gone for a week anyway. If it happens multiple times, I would n't allow my kids to play anyway.

[StrangeSox]

The key to this study is still linking concussions to degenerative brain symptoms later in life. I don't think most people would argue that multiple concussions would do this even though the link is still very thin based on all of the research.

where the true discussion lies in that idea that cumulative head trauma without concussion symptoms causes CTE or degenerative problems later in life.

Yeah, there seems to be a very strong correlation with sub-concussive brain trauma and CTE, but it's not 100% well-understood at this point.

[ptatc]

I wonder if those that are saying they wouldn't say no to football would say no to anything their child wants to do? And what that might be?

I allowed my son to play football but said no to him going to an overnight skateboard open house with mostly kids he didn't know.

[ptatc]

Yeah, there seems to be a very strong correlation with sub-concussive brain trauma and CTE, but it's not 100% well-understood at this point.

I haven't seen a strong correlation with concussion symptoms and CTE let alone sub-concussion symptoms.

[StrangeSox]

I thought that's what the research out of Boston University has found?

[StrangeSox]

I allowed my son to play football but said no to him going to an overnight skateboard open house with mostly kids he didn't know.

Now there's a dangerous hobby.

[southsider2k5]

I thought that's what the research out of Boston University has found?

 

That was the impression I had as well.

[ptatc]

I thought that's what the research out of Boston University has found?

Not really. It's still mostly focused around concussions. The problem being that until recently, concussions weren't understood well. Back in the day it was "he got his bell rung". They sat the player for a few plays and sent him back out. There were many concussions undiagnosed so it's difficult to tell in ex-Nfl players what was from concussions and what wasn't. In the younger kids found to have CTE forming there was a history of concussions or it wasn't reported if there ewas a concussion or not and if there were other variables like drugs.

[Balta1701]

I haven't seen a strong correlation with concussion symptoms and CTE let alone sub-concussion symptoms.

The problem is...if the results can only be diagnosed post-mortem, in order to build up a statistically significant correlation, you'd need to establish 2 groups, one control and one playing football (preferably several groups playing for distinct lengths), record their concussions when they occur (which only has really happened the last few years), then wait 40 years for them to die.

 

It's pretty much impossible to make a statistically significant correlation in this case until better techniques of diagnosing brain injuries and long-term damage become available. If playing football increased the chances of CTE by 10,000%, right now we wouldn't be able to say there was a strong correlation.

[Harry Chappas]

Not really. It's still mostly focused around concussions. The problem being that until recently, concussions weren't understood well. Back in the day it was "he got his bell rung". They sat the player for a few plays and sent him back out. There were many concussions undiagnosed so it's difficult to tell in ex-Nfl players what was from concussions and what wasn't. In the younger kids found to have CTE forming there was a history of concussions or it wasn't reported if there ewas a concussion or not and if there were other variables like drugs.

 

That is the problem. The studies that I have read all appeared to focus on the downside of football but not comparatively to other sports/activities. There is no definitive comparables.

 

I will say that if my son sustains more than one concussion playing football, a conversation needs to be had about how important it is to him. I would like to say you are done, that's it, but he has been playing since Pop Warner age, enjoys it and I think it really helps him as a person to assimilate with others and build up self esteem and self confidence.

 

 

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

That is the problem. The studies that I have read all appeared to focus on the downside of football but not comparatively to other sports/activities. There is no definitive comparables.

 

I will say that if my son sustains more than one concussion playing football, a conversation needs to be had about how important it is to him. I would like to say you are done, that's it, but he has been playing since Pop Warner age, enjoys it and I think it really helps him as a person to assimilate with others and build up self esteem and self confidence.

The problem is...what if it's not the concussions, it's the regular impacts during practice that really do the long-term damage?

[IlliniKrush]

Yes, it is arbitrary.

 

Is there data which shows children playing pee wee football or pop warner football are suffering from cte or some other significant health affects down the road as adolescents or adults? Do we know if these same children are suffering from adverse health affects from other sports or other activities? Can my child play touch or flag football and escape some of these potential adverse health affects? At what age is playing football the most dangerous or carry the most risk?

 

The questions can go on and on.

 

Is football more dangerous than not playing football? What are the health benefits from the increased exercise and activity as a result of playing football versus playing video games? What are the social benefits of being a member of a team versus being isolated at home or not exposed to as many children in the peer group?

 

It's an arbitrary decision.

Yes, it's out there.

 

As for your last paragraph, you can do those things without football. Plenty of other activities. Stop turning this into a football OR nothing debate.

 

The data and the stories on TV have been out there. Everyone can use Google, and then make decisions for themselves as a parent.

 

The problem is...what if it's not the concussions, it's the regular impacts during practice that really do the long-term damage?

That's exactly the case.

Edited December 19, 2013 by IlliniKrush