Hahn's next move?

[Eminor3rd]

Do the Sox have an interest in John Buck the catcher? MLB network guys were making a case for the Sox to sign Buck

 

[caulfield12]

White Sox fans do not deserve a "feel good curtain call" for PK.

 

Like most fan bases in baseball, Sox fans only attend games when the team is winning. Trotting PK back out there for everyone to chant "Paulie" for one last go around, does not help this team win games in 2014 nor does it build towards future winning seasons.

 

If Hahn can find a way to keep PK on the roster just to DH vs LHP in a platoon with Dunn, and it does not take away from Viciedo's plate appearances, or the Gilaspie/Davidson platoon at 3B that I want to see, then I'm ok with it... but I just don't see how that can happen as the roster is currently positioned.

 

 

 

That's not going to happen.

[Paulstar]

I wouldn't be thrilled with John Buck as the starting catcher, but I wouldn't mind it either. Odds are he and Flowers both have similar offensive upsides, but at least John Buck knows how to play defense and is known as being a good clubhouse guy and leader.

 

I still think a Keppinger and cash for Lobaton trade will eventually go down. Rays need to bolster their bench and have had success with Keppinger, and they have no room for Lobaton on the 25 man roster after trading for and extending Hannigan and re-signing Molina.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Paulstar

[Balta1701]

I wouldn't be thrilled with John Buck as the starting catcher, but I wouldn't mind it either. Odds are they both have similar offensive upsides, but at least John Buck knows how to play defense and is known as being a good clubhouse guy and leader.

 

I still think a Keppinger and cash for Lobaton trade will eventually go down. Rays need to bolster their bench and have had success with Keppinger, and they have no room for Lobaton on the 25 man roster after trading for and extending Hannigan and re-signing Molina.

I'd mind it.

[Paulstar]

I'd mind it.

What are you a glutton for pain wanting to watch Tyler Flowers get another 300+ AB's?

[Balta1701]

What are you a glutton for pain wanting to watch Tyler Flowers get another 300+ AB's?

Tyler Flowers has outhit John Buck for 2 of the last 3 seasons and John Buck will cost more. I'd call whoever thinks paying John Buck a solid salary the glutton for punishment.

[buckweaver]

This is it exactly!

 

 

I don't think he's saying that. However, having the opportunity to knowingly say good bye to an icon and one of the best players in franchise history is still pretty cool.

 

If you are implying that the Sox are a playoff team without Konerko, then you're crazy.

 

[Paulstar]

Tyler Flowers has outhit John Buck for 2 of the last 3 seasons and John Buck will cost more. I'd call whoever thinks paying John Buck a solid salary the glutton for punishment.

Really? Really? We're gonna use a 100 AB sample size of bad to say that someone outhit someone else who had a similar amount of bad in 300-400 AB's? To say one or the other is that much better offensively is absurd and that is embarrasing you tried to make that argument.

 

However, if I had to choose which player I'd rather see catch 100+ games, it'd easily be Buck. Unless his defense has just dropped off the face of the earth in the past couple seasons, he provides the club with a catcher who actually knows how to keep the ball in front of him and he does provide a veteran presence behind the plate. He and Flowers are probably equal offensively (except Buck has shown he can hit MLB pitching in the past and doesn't strike nearly at as high of a clip as Flowers). But odds are Buck's defense would help this team win a whole lot more than Flowers. If he's looking for anything other than a one year deal worth maybe 2 million, then I'd completely understand not bringing him in. But if you can get him on the cheap, I'd see no harm in it.

[Balta1701]

Really? Really? We're gonna use a 100 AB sample size of bad to say that someone outhit someone else who had a similar amount of bad in 300-400 AB's? To say one or the other is that much better offensively is absurd and that is embarrasing you tried to make that argument.

 

However, if I had to choose which player I'd rather see catch 100+ games, it'd easily be Buck. Unless his defense has just dropped off the face of the earth in the past couple seasons, he provides the club with a catcher who actually knows how to keep the ball in front of him and he does provide a veteran presence behind the plate. He and Flowers are probably equal offensively (except Buck has shown he can hit MLB pitching in the past and doesn't strike nearly at as high of a clip as Flowers). But odds are Buck's defense would help this team win a whole lot more than Flowers. If he's looking for anything other than a one year deal worth maybe 2 million, then I'd completely understand not bringing him in. But if you can get him on the cheap, I'd see no harm in it.

Tyler Flowers will be paid half that.

 

John Buck is not getting better and is not going to make the 2014 white sox better. The only way it makes sense is if they have no confidence in the ability of their guys to handle the pitching staff...in which case, why does it seem like so many pitches are called from the dugout, and why did they bother with a rule 5 draft pick?

 

If any of them, phegley flowers or neito, have a 0.1% chance of being a solid long term contributor to the white sox...that's better than the chance Buck has.

[ILMOU]

Lobaton, Buck, Nieto. For whatever reason, our aim in upgrading the C position has been remarkably LOW, and the biggest failure of the offseason, imo, if nothing better emerges.

[Paulstar]

Tyler Flowers will be paid half that.

 

John Buck is not getting better and is not going to make the 2014 white sox better. The only way it makes sense is if they have no confidence in the ability of their guys to handle the pitching staff...in which case, why does it seem like so many pitches are called from the dugout, and why did they bother with a rule 5 draft pick?

 

If any of them, phegley flowers or neito, have a 0.1% chance of being a solid long term contributor to the white sox...that's better than the chance Buck has.

So now we're saying the White Sox are the Marlins and act like one extra million in one season is going to be a huge deal to the team (especially for a team that's already under budget)? This is major league baseball, major league clubs waste millions every year. If I had it my way, guys like Flowers and Buck wouldn't come close to 7 figures but unfortunately baseball is a game where players get grossly overpaid.

 

I don't understand why this discussion is about the future at all either. Someone like Buck would be nothing but a stop gap until something better comes along. For a team that clearly isn't rebuilding but retooling and hoping to be somewhat competitive this season while they infuse young talent (which I believe is the goal of Hahn and the org), then to me someone like Buck starting at Catcher makes a whole lot more sense.

 

Also can we stop acting like Flowers has any chance of being a solid contributor now or ever? I'm sure he's a nice guy and all, but he is not a good baseball player. Phegley maybe has some very small chance of being a solid player, but I think the team views him more of a backup than a starter down the road. And Nieto, Nieto is why I think a veteran like Buck would make sense. I don't see how Hahn could trust Flowers or Phegley as being the full time starters this year while also trying to hide Nieto on the 25 man roster all year.

 

Hell, Nieto might turn out to be a stud and rookie of the year next year, which would be great, but most likely everyone is expecting a tough year for the guy who has never made it out of A ball before. If you put me in Hahn's shoes, I'd like to have a veteran, even a bad one, who has shown he can handle a full catching load throughout a year be the starter with the question mark of a backup rather than having two question marks on team trying to catch.

 

The way I look at it, Tyler Flowers doesn't do anything Buck can't do, but Buck can do things on the baseball field Flowers can't do. And I think those skills (being solid on defense and a veteran) can help out with Nieto and the team next year more than continuing the failed experiment of Flowers or just going through a year of throwing both Phegley and Nieto to the fire to see what happens. Also, at this point I have given up hope for any positive offensive contributions from the catching position, so at least I'd like to see fundamental and sound defense back there for once.

[greg775]

I'd definitely accept Flowers getting 300 bats if it means Buck gets zero at bats in a Sox uniform.

[Paulstar]

Lobaton, Buck, Nieto. For whatever reason, our aim in upgrading the C position has been remarkably LOW, and the biggest failure of the offseason, imo, if nothing better emerges.

I'm sure they tried, but it's not like a bunch of good, young catchers who are under team control for a the next 3-5 years are readily available via trade. The few guys out there, I'm sure their teams are asking for a lot in return. I'm just glad the Sox resisted the urge to go after Salty.

[greg775]

Regarding all the Paulie posts. Am I the ONLY Sox fan on this message board who actually thinks Konerko could hit .275 and blast 25-35 home runs if he's healthy? You ever heard of a comeback season?? I stand by the fact that except for his slow feet on the basepaths, he has not come close to embarrassing himself (like Fisk did at the end of his career). He still hits the ball and fields the ball. HE'S BEEN HURT, PEOPLE. I wish we could dump Dunn so Paulie and Abreu could flip flop between DH and 1B and both get a ton of at bats.

Edited January 5, 2014 by greg775

[witesoxfan]

If the Sox called around to the other 29 teams and offered to eat all of Adam Dunn's salary in exchange for a quality relief or UT prospect who would not have to be added to the 40-man roster then I have to believe at least someone would make that deal. I'd rather Hahn just get this out of the way and dump the guy.

 

Similar with Keppinger, if you call the other 29 teams and say you'll eat $1M this year and $1M next year and you will take back a non-prospect in return, I have to believe someone makes that deal.

 

Do those 2 things & now there is a lot less pressure to take a less-than-necessary return on a higher quality piece, like DeAza or IMO Gillaspie, who I think has a shot at being kind of a Mark Teahen type of player when he was on the Royals - which is nice so long as you are only playing him the minimum.

 

Why on earth would the White Sox pay Dunn's full salary to trade him? Honestly thats absolutely ridiculous. The most you pay is $10 mill. You'll be able to move him at the deadline.

 

Honestly, you are suggesting eating $25 million so you have extra time to deal Gillaspie (who you're not going to get much for to begin with) and De Aza (who you're going to get more for than Gillaspie, but still not much).

 

Say you get a C+ prospect for Dunn after eating his entire salary and a C- prospect for Keppinger after eating all his salary. Now, do you expect to get anything different from De Aza or Gillaspie respectively?

 

If you deal De Aza without eating salary, you save money and open a roster spot. If you deal Gillaspie, you open a roster spot. If you wait until midseason, you may be able to save anywhere between $2-5 mill with Dunn and possibly $7 million with Keppinger while getting minimal return but, more importantly, saving money).

Edited January 5, 2014 by witesoxfan

[ILMOU]

I'm sure they tried, but it's not like a bunch of good, young catchers who are under team control for a the next 3-5 years are readily available via trade. The few guys out there, I'm sure their teams are asking for a lot in return. I'm just glad the Sox resisted the urge to go after Salty.

 

Put me in the opposite camp here. He's WAY better than any of the options being discussed, and would have cost a lousy ~$20M for three seasons. And I'm no fan, mind you.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Stan Bahnsen

[Paulstar]

Put me in the opposite camp here. He's WAY better than any of the options being discussed, and would have cost a lousy ~$20M for three seasons. And I'm no fan, mind you.

He would have been nice this year, but I have a feeling Hahn has a bigger plan in mind.

[witesoxfan]

He would have been nice this year, but I have a feeling Hahn has a bigger plan in mind.

 

I think this too, but I think it's a more long term outlook. Give the guys on the roster a chance this year to help further define roles. Find a better option elsewhere. I like Saltalamacchia and said on here on multiple occasions that I'd give him $40 million, but I have no problem that they didn't and I do think they'll try and get a guy they believe can be a top 10 catcher in the league.

[Jerksticks]

He would have been nice this year, but I have a feeling Hahn has a bigger plan in mind.

 

I agree. All of a sudden we find ourselves with potentially above average players at most positions. If C and LF are settled for the long term by the start of 2015 we are going to have the Cardinals taking notes.

[Balta1701]

So now we're saying the White Sox are the Marlins and act like one extra million in one season is going to be a huge deal to the team (especially for a team that's already under budget)? This is major league baseball, major league clubs waste millions every year. If I had it my way, guys like Flowers and Buck wouldn't come close to 7 figures but unfortunately baseball is a game where players get grossly overpaid.

 

I don't understand why this discussion is about the future at all either. Someone like Buck would be nothing but a stop gap until something better comes along. For a team that clearly isn't rebuilding but retooling and hoping to be somewhat competitive this season while they infuse young talent (which I believe is the goal of Hahn and the org), then to me someone like Buck starting at Catcher makes a whole lot more sense.

 

Also can we stop acting like Flowers has any chance of being a solid contributor now or ever? I'm sure he's a nice guy and all, but he is not a good baseball player. Phegley maybe has some very small chance of being a solid player, but I think the team views him more of a backup than a starter down the road. And Nieto, Nieto is why I think a veteran like Buck would make sense. I don't see how Hahn could trust Flowers or Phegley as being the full time starters this year while also trying to hide Nieto on the 25 man roster all year.

 

Hell, Nieto might turn out to be a stud and rookie of the year next year, which would be great, but most likely everyone is expecting a tough year for the guy who has never made it out of A ball before. If you put me in Hahn's shoes, I'd like to have a veteran, even a bad one, who has shown he can handle a full catching load throughout a year be the starter with the question mark of a backup rather than having two question marks on team trying to catch.

 

The way I look at it, Tyler Flowers doesn't do anything Buck can't do, but Buck can do things on the baseball field Flowers can't do. And I think those skills (being solid on defense and a veteran) can help out with Nieto and the team next year more than continuing the failed experiment of Flowers or just going through a year of throwing both Phegley and Nieto to the fire to see what happens. Also, at this point I have given up hope for any positive offensive contributions from the catching position, so at least I'd like to see fundamental and sound defense back there for once.

You're acting like Buck has the chance to be a solid contributor. He flat out does not. The only reason you sign him is if you're desperate for someone to handle the pitching staff and there's zero sign of that.

 

You want a stopgap? We have 3.

[witesoxfan]

I don't mind Buck on a MLC with a buyout. If guys get hurt, he can be on the roster. If not, he can play in AAA or be on the DL with an "injury," and maybe he's a guy you can say "Look dude, you don't have it anymore, we want you on the coaching staff, please stay with us."

[Balta1701]

I don't mind Buck on a MLC with a buyout. If guys get hurt, he can be on the roster. If not, he can play in AAA or be on the DL with an "injury," and maybe he's a guy you can say "Look dude, you don't have it anymore, we want you on the coaching staff, please stay with us."

My god, is our manager so weak that everyone on our bench must be a coach too?

[witesoxfan]

My god, is our manager so weak that everyone on our bench must be a coach too?

 

Haha. Still, it doesn't hurt to have guys on the roster/bench that young players can look up to and go to for advice.

[BlackSox13]

A few comments here.

 

Paulie- I admit I was very much against the signing from the day it happened. That said I feel different about it now. Abreu is the future 1B of this team unless he shows he's not a good defender or we simply find a better defender and slide Abreu to the DH spot. Paulie was a solid defender at one time and I'm sure can teach Abreu a thing or two on defense which benefits the Sox no doubt. I really don't like having a backup 1B but it is what it is, and that's really not too bad of a thing concidering out LH DH ( dunn) doesn't hit hit lefties well at all and we are stuck with him for the moment. While platooning a high salary player in Dunn with Paulie isn't anyone's perfect scenario its what we have to work with, plus we've put up with dunn for 3 long seasons so what's one more or hopefully less? I would rather dunn be traded but that's just going to happen right now so we just have to deal with it.

 

Catchers- If the Sox were contenders I could see a guy like Buck as a backup to a real catcher. Unfortunately we aren't contenders at this point nor do we have a real starting catcher so I really see no point in signing a guy like Buck. Let's see what we have with Nieto, Phegley and Flowers after ST and go from there, provided a trade for a catcher doesn't happen before then. If something better comes up you grab it but for now these guys are what we have to work with. For all we know a mid season trade or the emergence of a guy like Nieto could solidify the position.

 

As for the cluttered bench. At this point its very possible guys such as Keppinger, Beckham, Gillespie and Dunn are literally going to have to hit their way off this team (trade worthy) to make room for guys like Davidson, LGarcia, Semien etc. They just do not have the value right now, tho I hope I'm wrong.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Why on earth would the White Sox pay Dunn's full salary to trade him? Honestly thats absolutely ridiculous. The most you pay is $10 mill. You'll be able to move him at the deadline.

 

Honestly, you are suggesting eating $25 million so you have extra time to deal Gillaspie (who you're not going to get much for to begin with) and De Aza (who you're going to get more for than Gillaspie, but still not much).

 

Say you get a C+ prospect for Dunn after eating his entire salary and a C- prospect for Keppinger after eating all his salary. Now, do you expect to get anything different from De Aza or Gillaspie respectively?

 

If you deal De Aza without eating salary, you save money and open a roster spot. If you deal Gillaspie, you open a roster spot. If you wait until midseason, you may be able to save anywhere between $2-5 mill with Dunn and possibly $7 million with Keppinger while getting minimal return but, more importantly, saving money).

I'm suggesting eating $14.5M for Dunn if necessary, taking the best deal possible in terms of talent. If I can't get an MLB SP prospect/bust/change of scenery guy, and if I can't pick up a similar player as a starting position player at an area of need, then I look for someone who won't have to be added to the 40 until at least next season. Even getting a useful-looking, non-roster UT or RP prospect will be more valuable to us on paper than Dunn. Not only do we clear a roster spot, we move Viciedo and DeAza both out of potential platoon position. Which is stupid. And I shouldn't need to explain why.

 

Kepp, I don't think we'd need to eat his whole salary. I'd eat no more than $3M total, but $2M or less ideally. I'd probably want a little something back though. But I'd take a middling prospect because I think we have younger bench players that are going to be more valuable to us longterm & could use the PT.

 

I don't know where you get eating the $25M part though.

 

I don't see the point of dealing DeAza for anything less than a solid return. It's not going to hurt us to keep him; it's not like Jared Mitchell or Joe Borchard Jr. are beating down the door. I think Hahn would have already moved DeAza if he got a deal he liked.

 

And I also see no real point in trading Gillaspie. I can't see how he'd bring a lot back, but he really could be a nice piece for us as a bench guy & spot starter. Having someone who could play the IF corners & maybe the OF corners too as a backup, plus as a LH PH bat that can make some contact, could help us quite a bit. We have have him at the minimum for 2 more seasons and if he's just a bench guy, even a solid one, we'll get values on his first 2 arb years as well most likely. I'm not sure how trading him gets you anything you care much about, and I'm not sure why you'd dump him just to open a spot for a non-core player.

 

I don't get (further) why we even care about penny pinching on Dunn. We're *under* our payroll budget as we sit here, and if Hahn gets even more active then in all likelihood we'll fall even below that number. The budget is already factoring in max INTL & amateur draft budgets; what would we be saving money for? If eating all that money gets him out of here right now then we'll be in a better position because of it. There's no way the Sox should dump any even remotely useful 2015+ pieces to keep that piece of crap on this team.