Hahn's next move?

[GreatScott82]

I think we're pretty much done except for trading away one of keppinger/de aza/viciedo. I think we stick with flowers phegley. Flowers, if he plays to his potential, can produce to at least a .235/.325/425 with 20 HRs and 60 RBI. I say give the kid another year see if he can do it. I say we trade Kepp and send cash for a low level spec. Gives us

 

1. Eaton Bench Rotation Pen

2. Ramirez 1. De Aza 1.Sale CL: Nate Jones

3. Garcia 2. Garcia 2.Quintana SU: Lindstrom

4. Abreu 3. Gillaspie 3.Johnson Su: Belasario

5. Dunn 4.Phegley/the other guy we picked up 4.Danks MR: Downs

6. Viciedo 5.Rienzo/Paulino MR: Daniel Webb

7. Davidson MR: Petricka

8. Flowers

9. Beckham

 

 

Can go with another bench guy or reliever...our bench does look pretty versatile little pop, speed, and some decent gloves.

Don't forget about Konerko taking up a bench spot. Hahn is not finished. He knows he needs to improve the catcher position. I'm tired of fans using the injury excuse for Flowers. The dude is bad. He was okay in a backup role, but he has had more than enough MLB experience to prove himself. My bet is that Hahn is going for a young guy with better plate discipline. The guy I want is Grandal. What will it take to get him??

[GreenSox]

Adrian Nieto's agent wrote a piece for Baseball Prospectus recently. In the comments section, someone asked him about Nieto's chances of sticking with the Sox. This is what he had to say:

That's interesting. What could possibly be reasons he can't talk about?

I'm bullish on Neito, but that's pretty weird.

[Kyyle23]

That's interesting. What could possibly be reasons he can't talk about?

I'm bullish on Neito, but that's pretty weird.

 

He probably can't say "Hahn told me that Nieto will be on the roster and possibly starting"

[GreenSox]

He probably can't say "Hahn told me that Nieto will be on the roster and possibly starting"

And that would be based on expected performance, which he should be able to talk about.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

If they don't add a good catcher before opening day, as it stands now I see Nieto as the starting catcher with Flowers on the bench and Phegley starting every day in AAA.

 

If they add a starting catcher I see Nieto as the backup and Flowers gone.

[Jerksticks]

I think we're pretty much done except for trading away one of keppinger/de aza/viciedo. I think we stick with flowers phegley. Flowers, if he plays to his potential, can produce to at least a .235/.325/425 with 20 HRs and 60 RBI. I say give the kid another year see if he can do it. I say we trade Kepp and send cash for a low level spec. Gives us

 

1. Eaton Bench Rotation Pen

2. Ramirez 1. De Aza 1.Sale CL: Nate Jones

3. Garcia 2. Garcia 2.Quintana SU: Lindstrom

4. Abreu 3. Gillaspie 3.Johnson Su: Belasario

5. Dunn 4.Phegley/the other guy we picked up 4.Danks MR: Downs

6. Viciedo 5.Rienzo/Paulino MR: Daniel Webb

7. Davidson MR: Petricka

8. Flowers

9. Beckham

 

 

Can go with another bench guy or reliever...our bench does look pretty versatile little pop, speed, and some decent gloves.

 

I dunno man. If Hahn truly believes we can be competitive then how can you have Flowers AND Dunn on the same roster? At least Beckham n Tank can make consistent contact. Dunn and Flowers are automatic outs except for maybe 150 ABs between them.

[Balta1701]

I dunno man. If Hahn truly believes we can be competitive then how can you have Flowers AND Dunn on the same roster? At least Beckham n Tank can make consistent contact. Dunn and Flowers are automatic outs except for maybe 150 ABs between them.

Wow, a player is an automatic out except for 150 AB's? So they hit... .250? How terrible.

[Paulstar]

Wow, a player is an automatic out except for 150 AB's? So they hit... .250? How terrible.

My understanding of between them means 150 altogether for both, not 150 for each of them. So I think you make yourself look foolish for trying to make the previous poster look like an idiot.

 

As for which side I'm on... Flowers is not an MLB starting catcher and at best a fringe backup catcher. He can mash bad pitching down in AAA, but he is lost vs. good pitching and to make matters worse he is brutal behind the plate. The only thing going for him is that he occasionally makes contact the leads to a home run (once every 25 AB's or so) and he has a strong arm. Best case scenario is that he turns into a Ramon Castro type of hitter who can mash lefties. But the last thing this team needs is a Ramon Castro (plus almost double the amount of K's) getting 300+ AB's. No team needs that.

 

As far as Dunn goes (and I strongly dislike Dunn as a baseball player), I'd have no problem with him and Konerko platooning at DH as that might actually produce a legit middle of the order bat when you put the two of them together. But back to Flowers, he has no business being on this team, and what makes matters worse is he is getting paid about a million bucks to be one of the worst players in the majors.

[Balta1701]

My understanding of between them means 150 altogether for both, not 150 for each of them. So I think you make yourself look foolish for trying to make the previous poster look like an idiot.

 

As for which side I'm on... Flowers is not an MLB starting catcher and at best a fringe backup catcher. He can mash bad pitching down in AAA, but he is lost vs. good pitching and to make matters worse he is brutal behind the plate. The only thing going for him is that he occasionally makes contact the leads to a home run (once every 25 AB's or so) and he has a strong arm. Best case scenario is that he turns into a Ramon Castro type of hitter who can mash lefties. But the last thing this team needs is a Ramon Castro (plus almost double the amount of K's) getting 300+ AB's. No team needs that.

 

As far as Dunn goes (and I strongly dislike Dunn as a baseball player), I'd have no problem with him and Konerko platooning at DH as that might actually produce a legit middle of the order bat when you put the two of them together. But back to Flowers, he has no business being on this team, and what makes matters worse is he is getting paid about a million bucks to be one of the worst players in the majors.

So you're predicting that between Flowers and Dunn...they will only not make outs 150 times? I think that's equally foolish. Adam Dunn on his own was "not an automatic out" 191 times last year.

[Paulstar]

So you're predicting that between Flowers and Dunn...they will only not make outs 150 times? I think that's equally foolish. Adam Dunn on his own was "not an automatic out" 191 times last year.

I never predicted that. I only called you out for your response to jerksticks. If anything, this last post of yours would have been a more fitting response to jerksticks.

[Balta1701]

I never predicted that. I only called you out for your response to jerksticks. If anything, this last post of yours would have been a more fitting response to jerksticks.

I think they both work...but man am I sick of the "how can we have these guys on this roster they strike out too much!" stuff.

 

We were 15th in MLB in strikeouts, dead middle of the Pack. Boston, who had a vastly better offense than us, had 101 more strikeouts than us. "I don't like watching guys strike out!" isn't a complaint about an offense.

 

Guys like Konerko, Beckham, and Keppinger had low strikeout totals last year and they were some of the most useless players on the roster. It's not Tyler Flowers and Adam Dunn striking out too often that killed us last year. It was Flowers and the rest of the guys not doing the things that they are capable of doing.

[Jerksticks]

I think they both work...but man am I sick of the "how can we have these guys on this roster they strike out too much!" stuff.

 

We were 15th in MLB in strikeouts, dead middle of the Pack. Boston, who had a vastly better offense than us, had 101 more strikeouts than us. "I don't like watching guys strike out!" isn't a complaint about an offense.

 

Guys like Konerko, Beckham, and Keppinger had low strikeout totals last year and they were some of the most useless players on the roster. It's not Tyler Flowers and Adam Dunn striking out too often that killed us last year. It was Flowers and the rest of the guys not doing the things that they are capable of doing.

 

It's not just the strikeouts though man. The strikeouts are merely a symptom of a greater disease that festers inside of Flowers/Dunn: the inability to be a tough out. I know that concept is alien to numbers guys on this site because it isn't quantified. It could be though if someone was to watch every AB and note every time they couldn't play productive team ball.

 

(Paraphrases):

AD a few years ago- "I'm not paid to hit singles."

AD last year- "My stupid stubborn ways, I guess I can try hitting away from defenders."

Me- "f*** you."

[Balta1701]

It's not just the strikeouts though man. The strikeouts are merely a symptom of a greater disease that festers inside of Flowers/Dunn: the inability to be a tough out. I know that concept is alien to numbers guys on this site because it isn't quantified. It could be though if someone was to watch every AB and note every time they couldn't play productive team ball.

 

(Paraphrases):

AD a few years ago- "I'm not paid to hit singles."

AD last year- "My stupid stubborn ways, I guess I can try hitting away from defenders."

Me- "f*** you."

How was it that when Adam Dunn started doing exactly what people like this keep asking for and swinging early in the count for the entire month of April, he was one of the worst hitters in the league and somehow no one remembers that?

[Jake]

I think the strikeouts seem to be the problem because the real problem is a lack of plate discipline. Strikeouts are one of the results of bad plate discipline, so strikeouts confirm our notion that our team lacks plate discipline. What was really sapping our offense were the other aspects of bad plate discipline, namely taking walks and hitting situationally.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I think the strikeouts seem to be the problem because the real problem is a lack of plate discipline. Strikeouts are one of the results of bad plate discipline, so strikeouts confirm our notion that our team lacks plate discipline. What was really sapping our offense were the other aspects of bad plate discipline, namely taking walks and hitting situationally.

I'd say the issue is even simpler and goes beyond the strikeouts. Our main offensive problem last year was having multiple players who were routinely over matched by major league pitching. To that end, while the youth additions are fun and provide some excitement, expect much more of the same next year. Although hopefully we'll begin trending upwards & start hitting our way through these development issues.

[The Ultimate Champion]

It's not just the strikeouts though man. The strikeouts are merely a symptom of a greater disease that festers inside of Flowers/Dunn: the inability to be a tough out. I know that concept is alien to numbers guys on this site because it isn't quantified. It could be though if someone was to watch every AB and note every time they couldn't play productive team ball.

 

(Paraphrases):

AD a few years ago- "I'm not paid to hit singles."

AD last year- "My stupid stubborn ways, I guess I can try hitting away from defenders."

Me- "f*** you."

Hey I told Dunn to f*** off first! Put me in there somewhere.

[Jerksticks]

How was it that when Adam Dunn started doing exactly what people like this keep asking for and swinging early in the count for the entire month of April, he was one of the worst hitters in the league and somehow no one remembers that?

No I agree. Both versions of Adam Dunn suck is what I'm saying. The fact that he himself said the "stupid, stubborn ways" comment infuriates me. He's so lucky to be playing pro ball and is paid tons of money to be the absolute best Adam Dunn he can possibly be. Saying "SSW" comes across as a guy not trying his hardest- unacceptable right?

 

He's not a tough out Balta. Concede that point brother

[Vance Law]

No I agree. Both versions of Adam Dunn suck is what I'm saying. The fact that he himself said the "stupid, stubborn ways" comment infuriates me. He's so lucky to be playing pro ball and is paid tons of money to be the absolute best Adam Dunn he can possibly be. Saying "SSW" comes across as a guy not trying his hardest- unacceptable right?

 

He's not a tough out Balta. Concede that point brother

 

It's just a little weird when people set out to dissect the Sox admittedly terrible offense last year and select Adam Dunn to criticize first. While Dunn is obviously a less than perfect hitter, he was the Sox most productive hitter last year. Have you already made posts about every one of the rest of the hitters (aside from Rios)?

 

And it's difficult to understand what is meant by "tough out" or how you're defining that. Is Alexei more of a tough out than Adam Dunn? Alexei makes outs more frequently than Dunn. Their entire careers as well as last year. That isn't some complicated advanced statistic that says that, it's on-base percentage. Is it ok if you make outs more often so long as they are "tough"? Wouldn't "ultimately makes outs less frequently" imply a "tough out"?

Edited December 30, 2013 by Vance Law

[Eminor3rd]

It's just a little weird when people set out to dissect the Sox admittedly terrible offense last year and select Adam Dunn to criticize first. While Dunn is obviously a less than perfect hitter, he was the Sox most productive hitter last year. Have you already made posts every one of the rest of the hitters (aside from Rios)?

 

And it's difficult to understand what is meant by "tough out" or how you're defining that. Is Alexei more of a tough out than Adam Dunn? Alexei makes outs more frequently than Dunn. Their entire careers as well as last year. That isn't some complicated advanced statistic that says that, it's on-base percentage. Is it ok if you make outs more often so long as they are "tough"? Wouldn't "ultimately makes outs less frequently" imply a "tough out"?

 

Excellent post. I don't give a s*** how they get out, I just need them to NOT get out at least 33% of the time. You want to talk about a guy who gets himself out, try the freeswinger who has a career OBP of .315. Maybe if he wasn't so stubborn, he wouldn't keep swinging at s***ty pitches.

 

That goes for almost everyone on our roster, unfortunately. Adam Dunn hasn't been great with us, but it isn't because he strikes out, it's because he has failed to get on base enough to make up for it -- which he previously did just fine. There's nothing wrong with the IDEA of Adam Dunn, there's been plenty wrong with the EXECUTION of Adam Dunn.

[Rowand44]

It's just a little weird when people set out to dissect the Sox admittedly terrible offense last year and select Adam Dunn to criticize first. While Dunn is obviously a less than perfect hitter, he was the Sox most productive hitter last year. Have you already made posts about every one of the rest of the hitters (aside from Rios)?

 

And it's difficult to understand what is meant by "tough out" or how you're defining that. Is Alexei more of a tough out than Adam Dunn? Alexei makes outs more frequently than Dunn. Their entire careers as well as last year. That isn't some complicated advanced statistic that says that, it's on-base percentage. Is it ok if you make outs more often so long as they are "tough"? Wouldn't "ultimately makes outs less frequently" imply a "tough out"?

I enjoyed this post. Well said.

[LittleHurt05]

It's just a little weird when people set out to dissect the Sox admittedly terrible offense last year and select Adam Dunn to criticize first. While Dunn is obviously a less than perfect hitter, he was the Sox most productive hitter last year. Have you already made posts about every one of the rest of the hitters (aside from Rios)?

 

And it's difficult to understand what is meant by "tough out" or how you're defining that. Is Alexei more of a tough out than Adam Dunn? Alexei makes outs more frequently than Dunn. Their entire careers as well as last year. That isn't some complicated advanced statistic that says that, it's on-base percentage. Is it ok if you make outs more often so long as they are "tough"? Wouldn't "ultimately makes outs less frequently" imply a "tough out"?

 

I don't know exactly what"tough out" means either, but I would imagine that making a pitcher throw a lot of pitches makes a pitcher work more and makes it tougher to get the batter out.

 

Only two batters in all of baseball saw more pitches than Dunn per plate appearance lay year.

 

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/lea...e/type/expanded

[Dunt]

Could really use another Sox move or two this week to get my mind off that Bears game

[cabiness42]

I don't know exactly what"tough out" means either, but I would imagine that making a pitcher throw a lot of pitches makes a pitcher work more and makes it tougher to get the batter out.

 

Only two batters in all of baseball saw more pitches than Dunn per plate appearance lay year.

 

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/lea...e/type/expanded

 

This is exactly why, while guys like Ramirez, Viciedo, and Pierzynski who don't take many pitches, aren't bad to have individually, it's really bad to have a lot of them. Most bullpens are pretty weak, and you want the other team's bullpen pitching as many innings as possible. You get to the bullpen faster when you have several guys in the lineup who work the count.

 

[witesoxfan]

This just isn't true. They were 8th in MLB last year in fWAR. That's a solidly above average pitching staff. It's not great, but if it was teamed with an average offense and an average defense it could pitch this team to the playoffs, or at the worst right on the edge of it. And just to stress...that was 8th in MLB in fWAR with Dylan Axelrod making 20 starts and a couple guys traded away from the staff midseason.

 

In what way is it above average? It's plenty talented, but it put up a league average ERA last year, which was 9th best in the league. They are replacing a guy who put up a 5.68 ERA, but also lost guys that put up ERAs of 3.56 and 3.79.

 

It's certainly talented and has room to grow into an above average pitching staff, but saying that it is above average at this point is wrong. Frankly, we have no idea what they'll get out of the 3-4-5 spots in the rotation. I would not be surprised if they are all good to great, nor would I be surprised if they all struggled badly. The difference between a pitching staff actually being above average and having the capability to be so is huge.

[ILMOU]

This Nieto swagger/posturing? is interesting to me. Are the Sox totally smitten with him and see him as a late bloomer with terrific talent? The jump from A+ to MLB seems crazy for a catcher, though, no? Is he worth the experiment in this particular season to get a Memorial Day/Flag Day timeframe for a look, getting perhaps 2/3 of the AB's, mostly against RHP?

 

FWIW, I like the idea of not needing to see Flowgley battle it out for 162 games at the major league level, making a choice at the end of ST who they want on the 25 man. And it's not a huge deal in my mind, because FlowGley is close to the same player.

 

But, it could be that the offseason still has a long way to go, so I'll try to be patient for a more solid C acquisition. Or, they could be looking at the C position, as I believe they are with 2B and possibly SS and LF as well (and even 3B if Davidson starts in AAA), as something to turn over or otherwise change at some midseason/trade deadline time frame. And maybe Hahn makes a deal during March if it looks like Nieto isn't up to the bigs. Seems like a giant leap to me, but who knows?

Edited December 30, 2013 by Stan Bahnsen