who's paying the medical bills for this dead person?

[Iwritecode]

Along these same lines, I recently read about a woman in Texas (I think?) that was in an accident and is being kept alive by machines. The twist is that she is pregnant.

 

Her husband said that she didn’t want to be kept alive but they didn’t have anything in writing. Because she is pregnant, they can’t/won’t pull the plug.

 

Edit: Link

Edited January 6, 2014 by Iwritecode

[DukeNukeEm]

A corpse that a month ago was their daughter or sister, who was having a comparably minor procedure and who's death no one was prepared for. The Schaivo family fought their fight for about 15 years and based on their recent interview they still are dealing with it.

But she is dead.

 

Look this has turned into a national story and I have a major concern that the crazy, nonsensical brand of hope these people are holding out that the dead body will somehow reanimate is going to inspire others to feel the same way. We are transitioning into a system where medical costs are shared amongst the public. Its one thing if its emergency surgery, or even Reddy's vocal chord exam... I'll be an indignant little b**** and whine about it but I'll comply. But if we don't have the balls to tell families "Look, your daughter is dead and while that is sad this f***ing game where you are trying to mechanically pump the heart of a corpse is retarded and will end now" and will instead funnel millions into a hopeless endeavor to avoid looking unempathetic the idea is just completely doomed to failure.

 

This is a colossal waste. A waste of doctors, a waste of a room, a waste of a life support machine and a waste of countless people's time. This hospital assuredly has people in it who's lives are hanging in the balance and this distraction is soaking up resources. Normally I don't think I'm in much of a position to comment on something like that, but if my brother was in that hospital fighting for his life I would be irate. A dead body is receiving superior medical care to 99.9% of the world's living population.

[DukeNukeEm]

Along these same lines, I recently read about a woman in Texas (I think?) that was in an accident and is being kept alive by machines. The twist is that she is pregnant.

 

Her husband said that she didn’t want to be kept alive but they didn’t have anything in writing. Because she is pregnant, they can’t/won’t pull the plug.

 

Edit: Link

So do they have to wait for the fetus to die before pulling the plug? I mean, if the fetus can make it I see no reason to pull the plug because a life actually hangs in the balance there but if not that just seems barbaric.

[Balta1701]

So do they have to wait for the fetus to die before pulling the plug? I mean, if the fetus can make it I see no reason to pull the plug because a life actually hangs in the balance there but if not that just seems barbaric.

Not just that, if the fetus is brain-damaged and will not be viable anyway, which is very likely the case given the type of injury suffered...the dead body will have to be kept on life support until the non-viable fetus is delivered.

[Balta1701]

But she is dead.

 

Look this has turned into a national story and I have a major concern that the crazy, nonsensical brand of hope these people are holding out that the dead body will somehow reanimate is going to inspire others to feel the same way. We are transitioning into a system where medical costs are shared amongst the public. Its one thing if its emergency surgery, or even Reddy's vocal chord exam... I'll be an indignant little b**** and whine about it but I'll comply. But if we don't have the balls to tell families "Look, your daughter is dead and while that is sad this f***ing game where you are trying to mechanically pump the heart of a corpse is retarded and will end now" and will instead funnel millions into a hopeless endeavor to avoid looking unempathetic the idea is just completely doomed to failure.

 

This is a colossal waste. A waste of doctors, a waste of a room, a waste of a life support machine and a waste of countless people's time. This hospital assuredly has people in it who's lives are hanging in the balance and this distraction is soaking up resources. Normally I don't think I'm in much of a position to comment on something like that, but if my brother was in that hospital fighting for his life I would be irate. A dead body is receiving superior medical care to 99.9% of the world's living population.

You're 100% right. It's a waste of a room and of life support machines.

 

But like I said...end of life issues are simply some of the most complex issues people will ever have to deal with and I honestly hope from reading your reactions you never are confronted with them yourself.

 

We're the richest country on the planet, possibly the richest country ever. This is one hospital room. It's being fought out in the courts as it should be. If we're in such desperate need for medical facilities that it's an absolute emergency and we need this room...the problem is not with the family, its with the fact that the richest country in the world can't afford to give the family a month.

[southsider2k5]

So much for Duke caring about individual rights.

[DukeNukeEm]

Not just that, if the fetus is brain-damaged and will not be viable anyway, which is very likely the case given the type of injury suffered...the dead body will have to be kept on life support until the non-viable fetus is delivered.

This is sickening, right? I can't be the only one who finds this attitude repulsive. Life is important, and there's definitely some virtue in protecting it, but this is just... I dont even know. I've lost people I care about. It wasn't pleasant but there is a feeling that the suffering they were dealing with is over and they have moved on into whatever happens next.

 

I just don't think that's something to be so afraid of, and while I understand (and mostly subscribe) to the idea that death is something we should generally avoid but a line can easily be crossed where the dead are just not allowed a peaceful exit from our world. To me that's something we should all be entitled to, that finding out what's next (even if it is the void) is the natural progression of our life cycle and our attempts to play god inhibit that very fundamental aspect of our existence.

[DukeNukeEm]

You're 100% right. It's a waste of a room and of life support machines.

 

But like I said...end of life issues are simply some of the most complex issues people will ever have to deal with and I honestly hope from reading your reactions you never are confronted with them yourself.

 

We're the richest country on the planet, possibly the richest country ever. This is one hospital room. It's being fought out in the courts as it should be. If we're in such desperate need for medical facilities that it's an absolute emergency and we need this room...the problem is not with the family, its with the fact that the richest country in the world can't afford to give the family a month.

But how many times is this going to happen? How many people, who aren't particularly educated, are going to think "We'll keep our babies corpse loosely clinging to 'life' because the government is picking up the tab"?

 

My guess, in a country like ours where the vast majority treat everything like Old Country Buffet, is a lot. Enough for it to make a difference. Let it be known I was against this idea of shared healthcare from the start, but now that reality in imminent and we better start learning to force irresponsible stupid people into doing something they don't want to.

[DukeNukeEm]

We should also learn how to write, because I'm clearly f***ing awful at it.

[Balta1701]

But how many times is this going to happen? How many people, who aren't particularly educated, are going to think "We'll keep our babies corpse loosely clinging to 'life' because the government is picking up the tab"?

 

My guess, in a country like ours where the vast majority treat everything like Old Country Buffet, is a lot. Enough for it to make a difference. Let it be known I was against this idea of shared healthcare from the start, but now that reality in imminent and we better start learning to force irresponsible stupid people into doing something they don't want to.

Very, very few honestly. People just don't wind up this way very often, and when they do people generally accept it. You're probably having your health insurance dollars right now go towards keeping a handful of people in states like this alive where they were covered by solid insurance when it happened, but you don't care about it because it's not on the news.

 

And if you want to prevent it from happening...you should strongly support having the government work with people in creating end-of-life plans. It's easier on the family and on society. That's the end-of-life planning services that should have been in the PPACA but were termed "Death panels" and removed.

[BlackSox13]

I think she's brain dead in the sense of there's no detectable brain function and currently all functions of the body including respiration are being driven by instruments. However, if blood is being pumped through the body and respiration is being sustained artifically then oxygen is being moved through the body to keep the tissues alive. That doesn't mean the brain can function, that doesn't mean there isn't significant damage already, but it is probably enough to slow the deterioration of tissue from this point.

 

However, you're 100% right that there's no hope of recovery. At some point, yes, people will have to let go...but the question of how you can force people to do so is not open and shut.

 

As I said, when it was a white woman in Florida, a significant part of the country thought a condition almost this bad which had gone on for half a decade should continue to be maintained indefinitely regardless of the cost, to the point that there were widespread protests and we had the remarkable spectacle of the Senate Majority leader, a trained M.D., giving a diagnosis on the Senate Floor based on a highly edited couple minute clip of video.

 

I understand completely that the family does not want to let go and I completely agree that there's a point the hospital will need to force them to do so. But it's not a decision that should be made lightly and if the family wants to fight for now, they have that right.

I understand Balta and I do agree. I admit its very easy to have an opinion on this since I'm in no way involved in the situation. I can see both sides to this. There's just so much more to this story than the money aspect of it I'm really not sure what else to say.

[mr_genius]

Very, very few honestly. People just don't wind up this way very often, and when they do people generally accept it. You're probably having your health insurance dollars right now go towards keeping a handful of people in states like this alive where they were covered by solid insurance when it happened, but you don't care about it because it's not on the news.

 

And if you want to prevent it from happening...you should strongly support having the government work with people in creating end-of-life plans. It's easier on the family and on society. That's the end-of-life planning services that should have been in the PPACA but were termed "Death panels" and removed.

 

the death panels were necessary, as I have said all along. anyways, i disagree with your first point. a lot of people will keep a corpse on life support waiting for a "miracle" if it is "free" to do so. keep in mind half the country doesn't even believe in evolution and they probably believe that the brain dead corpse can spring back to life at anytime with enough prayers and such.

Edited January 6, 2014 by mr_genius

[DukeNukeEm]

the death panels were necessary, as I have said all along. anyways, i disagree with your first point. a lot of people will keep a corpse on life support waiting for a "miracle" if it is "free" to do so. keep in mind half the country doesn't even believe in evolution and they probably believe that the brain dead corpse can spring back to life at anytime with enough prayers and such.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The general population of the USA has this blend of gluttony, fundamentalism and stupidity that will make this much more common once the threat of bankruptcy dissapears as a natural barrier to this kind of s***.

[Balta1701]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The general population of the USA has this blend of gluttony, fundamentalism and stupidity that will make this much more common once the threat of bankruptcy dissapears as a natural barrier to this kind of s***.

A large majority of the United States population currently has health insurance that would cover large portions of these costs in exactly the same way and yet, as I said, it's not commonplace.

 

Maybe the U.S. population deserves a little bit more credit than you give them.

[mr_genius]

A large majority of the United States population currently has health insurance that would cover large portions of these costs in exactly the same way and yet, as I said, it's not commonplace.

 

Maybe the U.S. population deserves a little bit more credit than you give them.

 

End of life costs are insanely high, Balta. There are plenty of unnecessary procedures done at very late stages in life and this has been well documented by "progressive" sources that I'm sure you would trust. Also, most old people are on medicare, maybe with a supplemental insurance plan.

Edited January 6, 2014 by mr_genius

[Reddy]

I feel like this is all coming from a 24 year old kid who's never experienced an unexpected massive emotional trauma. There's no other explanation for the lack of empathy.

 

That said, it's also massively inconsistent with his libertarian political views as pointed out by SS2K. Kinda love that part.

[DukeNukeEm]

How is this inconsistent with my ideology?

 

And I've lost people I care about. By pure bad luck I've also seen a lot of people who I don't know die.

Edited January 7, 2014 by DukeNukeEm

[Reddy]

How is this inconsistent with my ideology?

 

And I've lost people I care about. By pure bad luck I've also seen a lot of people who I don't know die.

the parents should be forced by the state/hospital/etc to take their kid off life support? individual rights!

[EvilMonkey]

the parents should be forced by the state/hospital/etc to take their kid off life support? individual rights!

how about forced to pay for it themselves if they want to expend medical care to a dead person? Although right now there is no indication as to who IS paying for the bills, the hospital (which means everyone else in the form of higher bills), insurance, the family or some mysterious benefactor.

[Reddy]

how about forced to pay for it themselves if they want to expend medical care to a dead person? Although right now there is no indication as to who IS paying for the bills, the hospital (which means everyone else in the form of higher bills), insurance, the family or some mysterious benefactor.

ok, but given that the system is what it is, dont the parents have every right - within that system - to keep their child on life support if they so choose?

[DukeNukeEm]

Not if they can't fund it themselves or via insurance (no insurance policy in the world is going to cover a dead person). Then it becomes the financial hardship of someone else, once that line is crossed you longer deserve control over the situation because you are dictating the use of someone else's money. My whole ideology swirls around the fact that codependency and shared sacrifices create situations just like these and the only instances where collective action is required is the defense of civil and property rights from foreign and domestic threats. The only reason it works in that regard is because the benefit is universal and financial burden of maintaining a military is ethically impossible in a market economy not to mention impossible.

 

Their freedom to keep the corpse's heart beating ran out when they could no longer afford it. I've mentioned before healthcare could also be a possible exception (though I'm not willing to subscribe entirely to that idea) but that would only apply to living people. Not corpses.

[Jenksismyhero]

I think the right answer is probably that the hospital is paying for it but they're doing so because they're compelled by law to pay for it up until a certain point. The family appeared to be an African American family from near Oakland and gave no impression that they're independently wealthy, so the hospital is probably paying for it as part of one of the cases we talk about where hospitals are compelled to admit and pay for anyone who shows up at an ER and can't simply let people die.

 

In the case where either an insurance company can pay or the family can pay, then those groups could continue paying for care as long as they'd want or as long as they're under contract to do so. If they were insured, my guess is that the insurance company would be involved in the legal process regarding removing life support.

 

As far as I can tell the court case has been the hospital against the family, with the family not wanting the hospital to keep the body on life support. That mostly likely tells me that the hospital is the one footing the bill due to a legal compulsion to do so without the permission of the family to remove that support.

 

Racist!

 

Also, this thread is all sorts of disgusting/depressing.

[southsider2k5]

Not if they can't fund it themselves or via insurance (no insurance policy in the world is going to cover a dead person). Then it becomes the financial hardship of someone else, once that line is crossed you longer deserve control over the situation because you are dictating the use of someone else's money. My whole ideology swirls around the fact that codependency and shared sacrifices create situations just like these and the only instances where collective action is required is the defense of civil and property rights from foreign and domestic threats. The only reason it works in that regard is because the benefit is universal and financial burden of maintaining a military is ethically impossible in a market economy not to mention impossible.

 

Their freedom to keep the corpse's heart beating ran out when they could no longer afford it. I've mentioned before healthcare could also be a possible exception (though I'm not willing to subscribe entirely to that idea) but that would only apply to living people. Not corpses.

 

How about when the hospital botched a routine surgery and "killed" their child? What sacrifice should the hospital have to make there? What rights to the parents have to not have their child killed?

[DukeNukeEm]

How about when the hospital botched a routine surgery and "killed" their child? What sacrifice should the hospital have to make there? What rights to the parents have to not have their child killed?

From what I've read the family kind of ignored orders. I don't know though, but theres some doubt it was the hospitals fault.

[Kyyle23]

From what I've read the family kind of ignored orders. I don't know though, but theres some doubt it was the hospitals fault.

 

Ignored orders? This is the first i heard of that. From what I have read, they were recommended the tonsil removal to improve quality of life(lose weight, help with her bladder issues). What orders were ignored?