How good would they have been?

[Texsox]

It's too bad that we will never know how good A-Rod and Bonds would have been playing "clean". Those two seem to me are the two guys that went from superstar to mega superstar with PEDs. Sosa, Mac, Palermo, and that crowd all went from very good to superstar. But Bonds and A-Rod started at pretty high levels before PEDs.

[Balta1701]

It's too bad that we will never know how good A-Rod and Bonds would have been playing "clean". Those two seem to me are the two guys that went from superstar to mega superstar with PEDs. Sosa, Mac, Palermo, and that crowd all went from very good to superstar. But Bonds and A-Rod started at pretty high levels before PEDs.

That assumes you can say when they started. I think its entirely possible they were doping much longer than just the latter portions of their career. Not every drug makes a person explode, Bonds could have just switched drugs in the late 90s.

 

Even more possible, ARoid could darn well have doped his entire life. We know he was doping in the early 2000s, we know he said he stopped and that very second he was finding a new supplier. He acts like a guy who knows nothing other than juicing. Why should I even consider that he was clean beforehand when all we know of him is juiced? He was supposedly an athletic freak in high school, why can't the explanation for that be a good doping schedule?

[ptatc]

That assumes you can say when they started. I think its entirely possible they were doping much longer than just the latter portions of their career. Not every drug makes a person explode, Bonds could have just switched drugs in the late 90s.

 

Even more possible, ARoid could darn well have doped his entire life. We know he was doping in the early 2000s, we know he said he stopped and that very second he was finding a new supplier. He acts like a guy who knows nothing other than juicing. Why should I even consider that he was clean beforehand when all we know of him is juiced? He was supposedly an athletic freak in high school, why can't the explanation for that be a good doping schedule?

I don't think he was doing it in the minors. I was working for kane county when he played for the appleton foxes. I saw him enough and he didn't look like it. He was no doubt the best player by far but not PED like.

[Balta1701]

I don't think he was doing it in the minors. I was working for kane county when he played for the appleton foxes. I saw him enough and he didn't look like it. He was no doubt the best player by far but not PED like.

If it was as easy as this then people should be readily, easily saying which guys dope before they get caught.

[Jake]

There has long been a story that Bonds decided to dope when he saw the limelight being taken from him by the McGwire and Sosa freakshow

[ptatc]

If it was as easy as this then people should be readily, easily saying which guys dope before they get caught.

Most people who see them on a regular basis do have a good idea. You just can't suspend them without absolute proof. When you see them in the locker room, it's usually pretty obvious.

[Balta1701]

Most people who see them on a regular basis do have a good idea. You just can't suspend them without absolute proof. When you see them in the locker room, it's usually pretty obvious.

Then point to us the specific physical change in Arod between the mid 90s and 2001 which tells you when he started doping and let us know when he actually started.

[Marky Mark]

Of course its just hearsay, but I recall reading about A-Rod's high school teammates saying they knew he was using PEDs before he was even out of school.

[ptatc]

Then point to us the specific physical change in Arod between the mid 90s and 2001 which tells you when he started doping and let us know when he actually started.

I never said I could. I said people who see them on a regular basis in a clubhouse could tell. I did not. I only saw him during his days in Appleton and didn't think he did them at that time. I could be wrong but I don't think so.

Edited January 20, 2014 by ptatc

[witesoxfan]

Bonds went from a really good, all around player to a monstrous hulk of a man between about 1999 and 2002, which coincides with a gigantic uptick in production at the plate.

 

Can't post the images as they are dynamic images, but just look up "Barry Bonds [year] Topps/Upper Deck/Score/[card company]" and you will have distinguishable photos between years.

[Balta1701]

Bonds went from a really good, all around player to a monstrous hulk of a man between about 1999 and 2002, which coincides with a gigantic uptick in production at the plate.

 

Can't post the images as they are dynamic images, but just look up "Barry Bonds [year] Topps/Upper Deck/Score/[card company]" and you will have distinguishable photos between years.

But IMO that does not imply he was 100% clean beforehand. We can't say based on physique that these guys are clean. We might be able to see giveaways that they're dirty if they do certain types of drugs, but that doesn't mean they're clean if we don't see those giveaways.

 

If it did then everyone would be nailing body type changes in skinnier guys like Braun, MCab well before they actually get caught, and I'm still waiting to see someone with a good record of calling that out before guys are suspended.

[witesoxfan]

But IMO that does not imply he was 100% clean beforehand. We can't say based on physique that these guys are clean. We might be able to see giveaways that they're dirty if they do certain types of drugs, but that doesn't mean they're clean if we don't see those giveaways.

 

If it did then everyone would be nailing body type changes in skinnier guys like Braun, MCab well before they actually get caught, and I'm still waiting to see someone with a good record of calling that out before guys are suspended.

 

You can say with 100% certainty that he was not clean from 2001 and beyond. That's all I care about.

 

If you look at the numbers, you can make implied assumptions that he was pretty clean. He may not have been 100%, but I have no idea if Frank Thomas used amphetamines. He's going to say "no" now, but he may not have known at the time what they hell they were exactly. That would make him not 100% clean.

 

However, I do have dates as to when Bonds used.

 

Also, regarding Braun and Cabrera - Braun has never been a small guy. He isn't the muscle bound freak that Bonds was, but let's not confuse skinny with weak. Braun has always had muscles galore. Regarding Cabrera, his size has increased proportionally to the increased number of trips he has made to the taco bar. He's fat.

[Balta1701]

You can say with 100% certainty that he was not clean from 2001 and beyond. That's all I care about.

 

If you look at the numbers, you can make implied assumptions that he was pretty clean. He may not have been 100%, but I have no idea if Frank Thomas used amphetamines. He's going to say "no" now, but he may not have known at the time what they hell they were exactly. That would make him not 100% clean.

 

However, I do have dates as to when Bonds used.

 

Also, regarding Braun and Cabrera - Braun has never been a small guy. He isn't the muscle bound freak that Bonds was, but let's not confuse skinny with weak. Braun has always had muscles galore. Regarding Cabrera, his size has increased proportionally to the increased number of trips he has made to the taco bar. He's fat.

(Probably was unclear I meant Melky Cabrera, who was caught juicing).

 

The reason I have to say that there's no reason to assume they were clean prior to 1999 is the topic of the thread, which specifically asks "how good would they have been without the juice". To ask that question assumes you saw them for a time when they were actually clean, which is an assumption we should have considerable doubt about.

[witesoxfan]

(Probably was unclear I meant Melky Cabrera, who was caught juicing).

 

The reason I have to say that there's no reason to assume they were clean prior to 1999 is the topic of the thread, which specifically asks "how good would they have been without the juice". To ask that question assumes you saw them for a time when they were actually clean, which is an assumption we should have considerable doubt about.

 

I personally don't doubt that Bonds was clean between the time he was drafted and 1999. The body type doesn't signal anything, and the research and types of PEDs was no where close to where it is currently. I also think the absolute significant boost you see between 1999 and 2000 compared to his 2001-04 is a pretty good indicator too.

 

I think Bonds is a 1st ballot Hall of Famer without steroids, probably 500-600 homers, 500+ steals, great overall career and in consideration as a top 5 player of all time. But, even just using his "non-steroid" years with his obvious steroid years in San Fran, here are his splits:

 

93-00: .303/.439/.626/1.065

01-04: .349/.559/.809/1.368

 

There is such a clear and significant upswing that I find it impossible not to distinguish the difference. You're right, maybe he was using, but I'm assuming he was pretty clean given body type and size and the difference between the unknown and the known.

 

Also, regarding Melky (not sure why I thought you meant Miguel), he's bigger in the Giants photos than the Yankees photos, but it's not distinguishable. Regarding him - and Braun, frankly - I have no idea when they started or what they'll be without. But, assuming Melky was clean this past year, his peripherals weren't that far off. His overall numbers sank, but some of that could simply be regression to the mean.

Edited January 20, 2014 by witesoxfan

[Balta1701]

I personally don't doubt that Bonds was clean between the time he was drafted and 1999. The body type doesn't signal anything, and the research and types of PEDs was no where close to where it is currently. I also think the absolute significant boost you see between 1999 and 2000 compared to his 2001-04 is a pretty good indicator too.

I come back to guys like McGwire, Palmeiro. These guys juiced quite heavily at young ages in the early 1990's or late 1980's and you couldn't tell. Palmeiro didn't really explode at all because his drug of choice was Winstrol, and McGwire didn't really start to inflate until the 1990's. His numbers when he was 31 don't look all that outrageous compared to his rookie year.

 

Rafael Palmeiro pointed at Congress and denied juicing and a lot of people believed him because his body type didn't look like Bonds until he was caught for abusing a steroid that was supposed to do exactly that - help you build up but only to a certain extent.

[SoxAce]

But IMO that does not imply he was 100% clean beforehand. We can't say based on physique that these guys are clean. We might be able to see giveaways that they're dirty if they do certain types of drugs, but that doesn't mean they're clean if we don't see those giveaways.

 

Ugh.. you would be "one of those people" huh Balta? <_>

[ptatc]

I come back to guys like McGwire, Palmeiro. These guys juiced quite heavily at young ages in the early 1990's or late 1980's and you couldn't tell. Palmeiro didn't really explode at all because his drug of choice was Winstrol, and McGwire didn't really start to inflate until the 1990's. His numbers when he was 31 don't look all that outrageous compared to his rookie year.

 

Rafael Palmeiro pointed at Congress and denied juicing and a lot of people believed him because his body type didn't look like Bonds until he was caught for abusing a steroid that was supposed to do exactly that - help you build up but only to a certain extent.

I still disagree. People who saw them on a regular basis knew something was going on. The type of PED and the training they did obviusly makes a difference. How a body builder trains versus a sprinter is part of the difference.However as we are discovering with some of the recent reports people knew they just didn't say anything. This is common in the sports culture. I can't tell you how many times I saw boosters walk into a training room in college and handed an envelope full of cash. You just don't talk about it.

I agree with your point that average person who doesn't see them often doesn't have a good idea unless they are experienced with seeing people on and off the PEDs. Most body builders could probably pick mpost of them out.

[witesoxfan]

I come back to guys like McGwire, Palmeiro. These guys juiced quite heavily at young ages in the early 1990's or late 1980's and you couldn't tell. Palmeiro didn't really explode at all because his drug of choice was Winstrol, and McGwire didn't really start to inflate until the 1990's. His numbers when he was 31 don't look all that outrageous compared to his rookie year.

 

Rafael Palmeiro pointed at Congress and denied juicing and a lot of people believed him because his body type didn't look like Bonds until he was caught for abusing a steroid that was supposed to do exactly that - help you build up but only to a certain extent.

 

There's reasonable doubt. That's all I'm basing this on. You are saying he's guilty by association and that he was guilty at some point, I'm saying he's innocent until proven guilty. I'm pointing out that Bonds was skinny, that his own testimony pretty much states that he didn't start until he saw what guys were doing, and that he was a completely different monster than the already great player he was prior to that point. I have as much proof as you do that Bonds roided, and I choose to believe he did not. If it comes out some day that he was roiding since the day he set foot in San Francisco, I am not going to be surprised and I am not going to eat crow.

[Kyyle23]

I come back to guys like McGwire, Palmeiro. These guys juiced quite heavily at young ages in the early 1990's or late 1980's and you couldn't tell. Palmeiro didn't really explode at all because his drug of choice was Winstrol, and McGwire didn't really start to inflate until the 1990's. His numbers when he was 31 don't look all that outrageous compared to his rookie year.

 

Rafael Palmeiro pointed at Congress and denied juicing and a lot of people believed him because his body type didn't look like Bonds until he was caught for abusing a steroid that was supposed to do exactly that - help you build up but only to a certain extent.

 

McGwire hit 49 homeruns in his rookie season, and nobody was getting close to the 50 homerun mark back then. He may not have had the body look, but his numbers certainly looked like it.

[witesoxfan]

McGwire hit 49 homeruns in his rookie season, and nobody was getting close to the 50 homerun mark back then. He may not have had the body look, but his numbers certainly looked like it.

George Bell hit 47 in '87 and won the MVP. Also, Andre Dawson hit 49 and Dale Murphy 44. 1987 was kind of a crazy, outlier year offensively.

Edited January 20, 2014 by witesoxfan

[Kyyle23]

George Bell hit 47 in '87 and won the MVP. Also, Andre Dawson hit 49 and Dale Murphy 44. 1987 was kind of a crazy, outlier year offensively.

 

I looked the top 10's from that year back and 5 years prior the league leader had 31 (i think it was Schmidt). Then a few 40s, Bells big year, then McGwire and Dawson happened.

 

McGwires ridiculous rookie year numbers and bash brother teammate screamed juicer

[kitekrazy]

George Bell hit 47 in '87 and won the MVP. Also, Andre Dawson hit 49 and Dale Murphy 44. 1987 was kind of a crazy, outlier year offensively.

 

George Foster hit 52 in 77. Then there's Don Kessinger hitting 4 in 69.

 

[ILMOU]

To hell with ARod, Bonds, Mariners and Red Sox.

 

How good would the '59 Sox have been?

 

From today's SSS: http://www.southsidesox.com/2014/2/15/5412...hall-and-minoso

 

" The White Sox did make history in 1949 when they hired John Donaldson as the first African-American scout in Major League Baseball. Donaldson was a former star pitcher for the Kansas City Monarchs. After retiring from baseball, he settled in the Bronzeville neighborhood, just a short distance from Comiskey Park.

 

The Tribune noted that Donaldson was going to scout "Negro and white players."

 

John Donaldson was very good at his job. He scouted a teenage kid in Birmingham named Willie Mays. The front office didn't pull the trigger. Donaldson also presented them with two kids named Ernie Banks and Hank Aaron.

 

They passed.

 

Frustrated with his lack of progress, Donaldson quit the White Sox and spent the rest of his life working for the Post Office. When he died in 1970, the White Sox paid for his headstone. "

 

 

I was not aware of this.

 

 

 

[Quin]

To hell with ARod, Bonds, Mariners and Red Sox.

 

How good would the '59 Sox have been?

 

From today's SSS: http://www.southsidesox.com/2014/2/15/5412...hall-and-minoso

 

" The White Sox did make history in 1949 when they hired John Donaldson as the first African-American scout in Major League Baseball. Donaldson was a former star pitcher for the Kansas City Monarchs. After retiring from baseball, he settled in the Bronzeville neighborhood, just a short distance from Comiskey Park.

 

The Tribune noted that Donaldson was going to scout "Negro and white players."

 

John Donaldson was very good at his job. He scouted a teenage kid in Birmingham named Willie Mays. The front office didn't pull the trigger. Donaldson also presented them with two kids named Ernie Banks and Hank Aaron.

 

They passed.

 

Frustrated with his lack of progress, Donaldson quit the White Sox and spent the rest of his life working for the Post Office. When he died in 1970, the White Sox paid for his headstone. "

 

 

I was not aware of this.

 

Damnit mid-1900s White Sox.

[Steve9347]

Damnit mid-1900s White Sox.