Dick Allen Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 05:17 PM) One more difference that no one has pointed out yet is that Peavy went public before the deadline about how he wouldn't mind getting trade either. If Jake had asked to stay, he wouldn't have gone anywhere. In reality, he still had "control". Saying they wouldn't have traded him if he said he didn't want to go anywhere is just making things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 07:57 PM) 3 or 4 year contract. The 3rd year of Peavy's deal isn't guaranteed, and the unique circumstances of his staying with the Sox have been illuminated about 20-25 times in this thread already. So let me get this straight, if at the trade deadline in 2011, someone for some reason wanted Adam Dunn, the White Sox absolutely couldn't or shouldn't have traded him. Thanks for the knowledge. As I stated, if you are upfront with these players and they agree to come, you have done nothing wrong. Edited January 28, 2014 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) No more pitchers necessary at this point in the game. I'm with Hanh here. That number three pick can bring a great pitcher for 2016, maybe even 2015. Trades are still on the horizon - no doubt in my mind. We're not done yet. Edit: The last few weeks since the Davison trade actually remind me of the Peavy deal. Hanh had plenty of options but played a good game of chicken, holding out for his target type player. He's don't the same thing here when fielding calls on Kepp, DeAza, Dayan, Rameriz, Beckham, and Dunn. Edited January 28, 2014 by hi8is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 08:51 PM) Saying they wouldn't have traded him if he said he didn't want to go anywhere is just making things up. Paul Konerko said hi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 09:04 PM) Paul Konerko said hi. Big difference between Konerko and Peavy. Plus Konerko has 10/5 rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 08:44 PM) What. WAR is not a predictive stat. If you want a stat that predicts a player's slugging percentage going from .536 to .277 in one year then I'd say you're out of luck. fWAR, by the way, had Dunn at an average of 1.5 WAR for his last 3 years in before the White Sox, so it's not like WAR was saying Dunn was an amazing bargain at $14m per. It's one level of dumb to judge a statistic based on one player, it's another level to completely misconstrue what the statistic says before doing so. WAR, fWAR, I really don't care when it comes to deciding whether a contract is good when it is signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 09:09 PM) Big difference between Konerko and Peavy. Plus Konerko has 10/5 rights. Except not really. It is in the Sox MO to protect their veterans wishes. They don't trade those guys unless they want to go. That is why Peavy wasn't moved until he basically asked in public to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 09:29 PM) Except not really. It is in the Sox MO to protect their veterans wishes. They don't trade those guys unless they want to go. That is why Peavy wasn't moved until he basically asked in public to go. How about a link? They told him what was going on and he knew they weren't going to win, and knew the teams involved. But as far as not trading him if he decided he didn't want to go,that you are totally making up. And he never asked to go http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/story/_...icago-white-sox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian310 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 09:29 PM) Except not really. It is in the Sox MO to protect their veterans wishes. They don't trade those guys unless they want to go. That is why Peavy wasn't moved until he basically asked in public to go. I feel like that Peavy part isn't right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 05:49 PM) Santana affords them the ability to deal Danks. The Sox bringing in Santana has no effect on Jordan Danks' roster spot. The Sox couldn't give his brother away at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 08:54 PM) So let me get this straight, if at the trade deadline in 2011, someone for some reason wanted Adam Dunn, the White Sox absolutely couldn't or shouldn't have traded him. Thanks for the knowledge. As I stated, if you are upfront with these players and they agree to come, you have done nothing wrong. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Adam Dunn. It has everything to do with a scenario where a starting pitcher is dumped so quickly in a contract....but not dumped, in your idea, but brings back more value to the organization than the initial ROI. You're making my point for me. Nobody wanted Adam Dunn because it was a bad contract at that time, just like Santana/Jimenez would be if they signed similar deals with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 09:49 PM) The Sox bringing in Santana has no effect on Jordan Danks' roster spot. The Sox couldn't give his brother away at this point. I'm assuming he means John Danks, but his response is still off. Bringing in Santana does nothing of the kind, it actually puts other teams in a better bargaining position simply because they can wait the Sox out, who would then be sitting on TWO bad pitching contracts. Why would anyone want to take Danks and not ask for salary relief at this point? I don't know what the odds are, maybe 50/50 (ptac probably has the best insight), but just to assume it's going to be easy to trade Danks before the end of his deal isn't exactly a high probability likelihood at this point. Even if he is traded, 1) we're going to be getting nothing in return or eating salary or 2) he's going to be pitching so well that it would make no sense for the White Sox to trade him because he's still young and they could make an argument for competing in 2015 and 2016, which implicitly means that Sale, Quintana and Danks are pitching well, providing a formidable 1-2-3. I don't think that will happen though. I think we'll get the 4.5-5.0 ERA Danks, just like we would get that version of Jimenez and Santana as well. It would be amusing though, to see the same posters saying we need to acquire Jimenez/Santana begging the White Sox to trade Danks if we could get out from under that deal, which was signed 100% as a "win now" move if ever there was one. Ironic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 07:06 PM) I could not give one damn about WAR and contracts. As stated earlier in the thread, some bootleg WAR related formula told me the Sox got a fair deal when they signed Dunn. Lol. Marty. Holy s*** man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 09:39 PM) How about a link? They told him what was going on and he knew they weren't going to win, and knew the teams involved. But as far as not trading him if he decided he didn't want to go,that you are totally making up. And he never asked to go http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/story/_...icago-white-sox Nice selection of the out of town article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 09:13 PM) WAR, fWAR, I really don't care when it comes to deciding whether a contract is good when it is signed. Do you even have any idea what sport we're talking about? You don't need sabermetrics to tell you that mediocre pitchers get worse in their 30s. Edited January 28, 2014 by Eminor3rd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 07:29 PM) They don't trade those guys unless they want to go. That is why Peavy wasn't moved until he basically asked in public to go. You've gotta be kidding me. Peavy was held onto until Hanh got the value he wanted. It didn't have anything to do with the player asking to be traded. Your assertion is way off base this time pal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 We don't need Santana. Santana is the most erratic, inconsistent pitcher I've ever seen. One season he's 3.10, the next he's 5.67. No thank you, I'm content with Sale, Quintana, Danks, Johnson, and Paulenzo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 09:51 PM) This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Adam Dunn. It has everything to do with a scenario where a starting pitcher is dumped so quickly in a contract....but not dumped, in your idea, but brings back more value to the organization than the initial ROI. You're making my point for me. Nobody wanted Adam Dunn because it was a bad contract at that time, just like Santana/Jimenez would be if they signed similar deals with them. The only point I am making is guys signing 4 year contracts are game to be traded. There is no rule against it. Signing a pithcer increases the White Sox pitching inventory, making it easier to trade pitching for help in other areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 10:23 PM) Nice selection of the out of town article. Written by Bruce Levine. You are wrong yet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 11:22 PM) The only point I am making is guys signing 4 year contracts are game to be traded. There is no rule against it. Signing a pithcer increases the White Sox pitching inventory, making it easier to trade pitching for help in other areas. It's just not how the White Sox do business. There's a certain amount of trust and loyalty that you don't see with other organizations. It's JR's decision, as long as he's the principal shareholder. It works to their detriment as well, sometimes, but it's a conscious choice. And, other than the Konerko decision, they've been brutally honest with Buehrle and AJ. They're not going to add a $40+ million dollar contract unless they've done their due diligence. Hahn's not doing if his job if he hasn't at least considered it, but that's why they have members of the front office to run the numbers and do risk assessment. If the numbers became even more attractive (let's say $24-26-28 million for 3 years), then they would give it more thorough analysis. They had numbers for Tanaka that made sense moving forward, they certainly have numbers in mind for Jimenez or Santana...but it's undoubtedly a lower number than what they'll eventually go for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeynach Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 08:41 AM) You legitimately think that a high school prospect won't help for 6 years? Meanwhile, people have already (incorrectly) talked about Tyler Danish, a high school pick in the 2nd round, pitching in the majors this year. He could legitimately get a cup of coffee next year and could be a significant piece of the puzzle come 2016. If it's not till 2017, that's realistic too. By all standards, if said high school player is taken in the 2nd, expecting him in the majors by 2018 is completely reasonable. They may bust - that's the nature of the beast. I'd still rather have that plus the allotted money to that slot than counting on anyone past the 10th round to contribute instead. Weren't Strasburg and Harper both drafted out of HS and in the majors within 2 or 3 seasons? Now everyday players and All stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (joeynach @ Jan 28, 2014 -> 12:42 AM) Weren't Strasburg and Harper both drafted out of HS and in the majors within 2 or 3 seasons? Now everyday players and All stars. Strasburg was a college pitcher. Also, again, Ervin Johan Ramon Magic Santana sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (joeynach @ Jan 28, 2014 -> 12:42 AM) Weren't Strasburg and Harper both drafted out of HS and in the majors within 2 or 3 seasons? Now everyday players and All stars. Well, yes. But you're also talking once-in-a-generation players who were drafted #1 overall. Alex Rodriguez and Ken Griffey, Jr., would be two other examples. Trout had a very fast progression, from being drafted in 2009 to ROY/MVP-caliber three years later. For 2nd rounders, it would be incredibly unusual, unless it was a collegiate pitcher, probably a reliever like Addison Reed. A couple of other examples in the Sox system (who had less minor league time) would be Scott Radinsky and Boone Logan, LHR's. Of course, you have your "normal" progression for a high schooler, which is four years, essentially 4 1/2 minor league seasons including the year of being drafted (short season/Arizona/fall Leagues, etc.) and then Low A, High A, AA/AAA....arriving at the major league team a full five years later. Three or four is very fast, five is normal and six is probably a late bloomer. Edited January 28, 2014 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 28, 2014 -> 12:47 AM) Strasburg was a college pitcher. Also, again, Ervin Johan Ramon Magic Santana sucks. What is the Ramon for? Troncoso? Shouldn't it be Earvin, haha? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 28, 2014 -> 02:54 AM) What is the Ramon for? Troncoso? Shouldn't it be Earvin, haha? His birth name is Johan Ramon Santana. He changed it while in the minors to "Ervin" to avoid confusion with Johan Santana. His nickname used to be "Magic" Edited January 28, 2014 by Quinarvy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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