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[witesoxfan]

How has John Lackey worked out for the Red Sox?

 

2010 - 4.40 ERA, 3.85 FIP, 215 IP

2011 - 6.41 ERA, 4.71 FIP, 160 IP

2012 - missed the year due to injury

2013 - 3.52 ERA, 3.86 FIP, 189.1 IP

 

Would you be happy if Santana or Jimenez came in and put up those numbers over a 4 year contract?

[hammerhead johnson]

Forget it, they are in "If we repeat it enough times, it will be true" mode.

 

Right, we should switch the subject right quick. Tell us more about how K-Dub could've had a good farm system if he so desired. I'm just dying to hear more about how he purposely drafted awful players for a dozen years.

[greg775]

As I stated, you wouldn't be burning bridges, because signing these guys for multiyears with draft pick compensation is doing them a solid at this point.

 

The White Sox aren't in danger of becoming the Marlins, but if you want to be ultra conservative, like is being suggested on this board, being the Marlins might be the best case scenerio for what you will become.

 

I have never seen a group of fans so opposed to increasing the talent level of their team.

 

Amen to your last sentence. It's like there is a group on here who wants bad players cause it means we're still rebuilding. It's not like the cost of going to a game is going to decrease any, so why not put the heat on our front office to spend some money and get some more good players??

[Balta1701]

Amen to your last sentence. It's like there is a group on here who wants bad players cause it means we're still rebuilding. It's not like the cost of going to a game is going to decrease any, so why not put the heat on our front office to spend some money and get some more good players??

Ignoring of course the big cut in ticket prices last year.

[royoung]

As I stated, you wouldn't be burning bridges, because signing these guys for multiyears with draft pick compensation is doing them a solid at this point.

 

The White Sox aren't in danger of becoming the Marlins, but if you want to be ultra conservative, like is being suggested on this board, being the Marlins might be the best case scenerio for what you will become.

 

I have never seen a group of fans so opposed to increasing the talent level of their team.

 

Yep, the Sox and us are acting ultra conservative, making aggressive trades that free up cash and make the team younger. Basically the exact opposite of what you are purposing.

 

Davidson, Garcia, Abreu, Sale, Q, Johnson, Eaton, are all controlled by the White Sox for the next 5-6 years. Even a high upside HS draft pick can contribute near the end of that window of contention. Worst case scenario, they create a new young core for beyond.

[southsider2k5]

Right, we should switch the subject right quick. Tell us more about how K-Dub could've had a good farm system if he so desired. I'm just dying to hear more about how he purposely drafted awful players for a dozen years.

 

You mean intentionally spent under budget on the draft so he could plow those funds into the major league team? People still haven't figured this out yet? Could it be more obvious?

[witesoxfan]

Amen to your last sentence. It's like there is a group on here who wants bad players cause it means we're still rebuilding. It's not like the cost of going to a game is going to decrease any, so why not put the heat on our front office to spend some money and get some more good players??

 

Yes greg, I am just dying to fill the lineup with Jeff Keppingers and Dylan Axelrods.

 

..or maybe, just maybe, I want to see what Erik Johnson, Erik Surkamp, Felipe Paulino, and Andre Rienzo are capable of and if they can be key cogs in the rotation or if the Sox should look for a new one next year. The team is probably going to win 78 games (at the most) next year. They are just as likely to lose 90 or more. The team is rebuilding its talent level and you need to see what they are capable of. You can't do that if you bring in Ubaldo Jimenez or Ervin Santana.

 

Both Kendrys Morales and Nelson Cruz would probably be upgrades for the team somewhere in the lineup. Why isn't anyone suggesting the Sox sign them and then deal them away 2-3 years into the contract?

[royoung]

Yes greg, I am just dying to fill the lineup with Jeff Keppingers and Dylan Axelrods.

 

..or maybe, just maybe, I want to see what Erik Johnson, Erik Surkamp, Felipe Paulino, and Andre Rienzo are capable of and if they can be key cogs in the rotation or if the Sox should look for a new one next year. The team is probably going to win 78 games (at the most) next year. They are just as likely to lose 90 or more. The team is rebuilding its talent level and you need to see what they are capable of. You can't do that if you bring in Ubaldo Jimenez or Ervin Santana.

 

Both Kendrys Morales and Nelson Cruz would probably be upgrades for the team somewhere in the lineup. Why isn't anyone suggesting the Sox sign them and then deal them away 2-3 years into the contract?

 

I'd honestly rather see Nelson Cruz on this team than Jimenez or Santana if we could get some decent for Viciedo/De Aza

[Dick Allen]

Yep, the Sox and us are acting ultra conservative, making aggressive trades that free up cash and make the team younger. Basically the exact opposite of what you are purposing.

 

Davidson, Garcia, Abreu, Sale, Q, Johnson, Eaton, are all controlled by the White Sox for the next 5-6 years. Even a high upside HS draft pick can contribute near the end of that window of contention. Worst case scenario, they create a new young core for beyond.

BP has a section call Prospects will break your heart. If the majority of the guys you mentioned ARE the core 2 or 3 years from now, Hahn should be considered among the best GMs in the game. The fact is, a couple of these guys will probably fail. A couple may get hurt.

 

Things change. I was reading the re-signing of Peavy thread earlier. Greg posted, and he was correct, that the team would be doing handstands if another team were to take Adam Dunn's contract. He got slammed. Now, a year, later, Dunn doesn't go to seminars at Soxfest because people refuse to treat him like a human being, even though his 2013 wasn't that much worse than his 2012.

 

What I am proposing is a way for the White Sox to keep acquiring the Eatons and the Davidsons instead of drafting the Trace Thompsons and Keenyn Walkers. And although far from sure things, they are safer bets.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

BP has a section call Prospects will break your heart. If the majority of the guys you mentioned ARE the core 2 or 3 years from now, Hahn should be considered among the best GMs in the game. The fact is, a couple of these guys will probably fail. A couple may get hurt.

 

Things change. I was reading the re-signing of Peavy thread earlier. Greg posted, and he was correct, that the team would be doing handstands if another team were to take Adam Dunn's contract. He got slammed. Now, a year, later, Dunn doesn't go to seminars at Soxfest because people refuse to treat him like a human being, even though his 2013 wasn't that much worse than his 2012.

 

What I am proposing is a way for the White Sox to keep acquiring the Eatons and the Davidsons instead of drafting the Trace Thompsons and Keenyn Walkers. And although far from sure things, they are safer bets.

 

No, what you are proposing is a far riskier method of adding prospects. Again, what would the Red Sox get for John Lackey right now? What would the Cubs get for Edwin Jackson? What would the Angels get for Josh Hamilton? What would the White Sox get for John Danks?

 

Yes, there is a chance that Santana could be good for 2-3 years and the Sox would be in a position to trade him. There's also a ton that could go wrong. However, the odds that they will add roughly a top 50 amateur prospect in the nation if they don't sign Santana or Jimenez is 100%.

[hogan873]

Amen to your last sentence. It's like there is a group on here who wants bad players cause it means we're still rebuilding. It's not like the cost of going to a game is going to decrease any, so why not put the heat on our front office to spend some money and get some more good players??

Who said anything about wanting bad players? Just because the "group" thinks that signing a 30+ year old starter for a 3-4 year deal at $12+ million per in the hopes that the Sox could flip him for young talent at the deadline is not a great idea, doesn't mean that aforementioned group wants the Sox to have a roster full of bad players. I for one would like to see what some of the young talent that we already have can do.

 

Before a team signs or trades for someone, they have to do a risk/benefit analysis. I think that the risks outweigh the benefits when it comes to the SPs that some here want to see signed. There's much less risk with a 2nd round draft pick, and that pick can actually lead to greater benefits in the near term (trade for "now" talent) and in the future (bring up through the minors to the majors eventually). I just don't see why there's even an argument here. We're not talking about trying to get 3-5 more wins to get the team into the postseason. We're talking about improving a 99-loss team.

[Eminor3rd]

Is the Marlins minor league system be as good, worse or the same by signing Buehrle, Reyes et al. and trading them away?

 

LOL. Yeah, that's an example we want to follow.

[BlackSox13]

While were playing the what if game...

 

What if the Sox continue to get good production from Sale and Q?

 

What if Danks returns to form?

 

What if Johnson solidifies his spot in the rotation?

 

What if the Sox get just average production from the fifth starter (Paulino, Surkamp, Rienzo)?

 

What if the Sox are somehow in contention near the trade deadline?

 

What if the Sox needed a hitter to help the offense?

 

What if the Sox didn't spend money on a starting pitcher this off season?

 

What if the Sox had extra money to make a mid season trade for a higher priced hitter to continue contending for 2014 and beyond?

 

Oh the what if possibilities...

 

The point is, given the Sox poor offense last year and the amount of youth that will be infused this year its possible at some point they could use the help and it would be nice if money was there when that time came. Even if they are not in contention they can still take on a higher salary position player that could help set up the 2015 team and beyond.

Edited January 27, 2014 by StRoostifer

[Dick Allen]

No, what you are proposing is a far riskier method of adding prospects. Again, what would the Red Sox get for John Lackey right now? What would the Cubs get for Edwin Jackson? What would the Angels get for Josh Hamilton? What would the White Sox get for John Danks?

 

Yes, there is a chance that Santana could be good for 2-3 years and the Sox would be in a position to trade him. There's also a ton that could go wrong. However, the odds that they will add roughly a top 50 amateur prospect in the nation if they don't sign Santana or Jimenez is 100%.

There's a chance for failure, but you are also not mentioning players that could have been traded for decent prospects.

 

Why sign any high priced free agent if some fail?

 

There is just as good of a chance Eaton fails, Davidson fails Garcia fails, and I really have no idea why so many are so concerned about JR's rather flush bank account.

[Eminor3rd]

Peavy has not always been better. He had a stretch of 3 years he hardly pitched 300 innings.

 

Santana has been really good 4 of the past 6 seasons:

 

2008 3.49 ERA 219 IP

2009 5.03 ERA 139 IP

2010 3.92 ERA 222 IP

2011 3.38 ERA 228 IP

2012 5.16 ERA 178 IP

2013 3.24 ERA 211 IP

 

and you are saying this is better?

 

2008 2.85 ERA 173 IP

2009 3.45 ERA 101 IP

2010 4.63 ERA 107 IP

2011 4.92 ERA 111 IP

2012 3.37 ERA 219 IP

2013 4.17 ERA 144 IP

 

Fortunately, front offices aren't dumb enough to judge pitchers by only looking at ERA and IP.

[ptatc]

BP has a section call Prospects will break your heart. If the majority of the guys you mentioned ARE the core 2 or 3 years from now, Hahn should be considered among the best GMs in the game. The fact is, a couple of these guys will probably fail. A couple may get hurt.

 

Things change. I was reading the re-signing of Peavy thread earlier. Greg posted, and he was correct, that the team would be doing handstands if another team were to take Adam Dunn's contract. He got slammed. Now, a year, later, Dunn doesn't go to seminars at Soxfest because people refuse to treat him like a human being, even though his 2013 wasn't that much worse than his 2012.

 

What I am proposing is a way for the White Sox to keep acquiring the Eatons and the Davidsons instead of drafting the Trace Thompsons and Keenyn Walkers. And although far from sure things, they are safer bets.

I agree with this in principle however there is a significant flaw in this argument. Eaton and Davidson were not acquired by over 30 pitchers on the backside of a 4 year deal at 12 mil per. They were acquired by young MLB proven talent.

I'm always for trading prospects for proven MLB talent. However, signing near 30 year old pitchers is not the answer.

[Eminor3rd]

There's a chance for failure, but you are also not mentioning players that could have been traded for decent prospects.

 

Why sign any high priced free agent if some fail?

 

There is just as good of a chance Eaton fails, Davidson fails Garcia fails, and I really have no idea why so many are so concerned about JR's rather flush bank account.

 

How much money he has is completely irrelevant. There is clearly a payroll ceiling and there always has been.

[Dick Allen]

Fortunately, front offices aren't dumb enough to judge pitchers by only looking at ERA and IP.

Apparently they are if what everyone says is true and Santana is going to get more money than Peavy.

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

I agree with this in principle however there is a significant flaw in this argument. Eaton and Davidson were not acquired by over 30 pitchers on the backside of a 4 year deal at 12 mil per. They were acquired by young MLB proven talent.

I'm always for trading prospects for proven MLB talent. However, signing near 30 year old pitchers is not the answer.

 

Amen

[Dick Allen]

How much money he has is completely irrelevant. There is clearly a payroll ceiling and there always has been.

Evidence shows there may be a ceiling, but what it is we will never know. They were over budget, then traded for Peavy and picked up Rios. They were over budget, paid Manny $4 million for one month. They were busted, signed Dunn, meant the end of AJP and Konerko. Oh wait, we will bring them both back. Attendance down again. Ticket prices lowered, yet bid over $100 million + $20 million posting fee for a Japanese pitcher.

[Eminor3rd]

Apparently they are if what everyone says is true and Santana is going to get more money than Peavy.

 

Yes, he is. Because players always get more money in free agency. Because several teams compete in the bidding. This is not anything like Jake Peavy's situation.

[southsider2k5]

There's a chance for failure, but you are also not mentioning players that could have been traded for decent prospects.

 

Why sign any high priced free agent if some fail?

 

There is just as good of a chance Eaton fails, Davidson fails Garcia fails, and I really have no idea why so many are so concerned about JR's rather flush bank account.

 

I would love to see you quote all of these posts...

[Dick Allen]

I agree with this in principle however there is a significant flaw in this argument. Eaton and Davidson were not acquired by over 30 pitchers on the backside of a 4 year deal at 12 mil per. They were acquired by young MLB proven talent.

I'm always for trading prospects for proven MLB talent. However, signing near 30 year old pitchers is not the answer.

Avasail Garcia was acquired for an over 30 pitcher with an injury history.

[Eminor3rd]

Evidence shows there may be a ceiling, but what it is we will never know. They were over budget, then traded for Peavy and picked up Rios. They were over budget, paid Manny $4 million for one month. They were busted, signed Dunn, meant the end of AJP and Konerko. Oh wait, we will bring them both back. Attendance down again. Ticket prices lowered, yet bid over $100 million + $20 million posting fee for a Japanese pitcher.

 

What does the fact that we don't know what the ceiling is have to do with anything? Some ceiling exists, therefore wasting money is a bad idea.

[Dick Allen]

Yes, he is. Because players always get more money in free agency. Because several teams compete in the bidding. This is not anything like Jake Peavy's situation.

Jake Peavy was a free agent.