Eminor3rd Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:13 PM) Jake Peavy was a free agent. Jake Peavy was a pending free agent who signed an extension before reaching free agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:12 PM) What does the fact that we don't know what the ceiling is have to do with anything? Some ceiling exists, therefore wasting money is a bad idea. You were the one who said there clearly was a ceiling. Then what is it? I'm pointing out that what the White Sox say about said ceilings and actuality are usually a little different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:11 PM) Avasail Garcia was acquired for an over 30 pitcher with an injury history. A pitcher signed to a team-friendly, short contract. And that pitcher was having a pretty good season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:15 PM) A pitcher signed to a team-friendly, short contract. And that pitcher was having a pretty good season. It was a $29 million 2 year contract, and if he pitched 400 innings, it was a $44 million 3 year contract. The per year was probably higher than what Santana will be paid, and teams do have an extra $25 million a year to play with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:15 PM) You were the one who said there clearly was a ceiling. Then what is it? I'm pointing out that what the White Sox say about said ceilings and actuality are usually a little different. The Sox have never spent more than $118m on a payroll, while other teams have spent substantially more and beat the White Sox. If money was no object, then the White Sox would have spent more money to improve their chances to win. I'm not disagreeing with you that the "ceiling" may be flexible. But when it's flexes, it's for the sake of making a move that seems like a smart move, not signing some mediocre starter to hopefully trade in 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:11 PM) I would love to see you quote all of these posts... Every single one that is worried about the money. Now tell me again why KW decided he didn't want to have a good farm system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:11 PM) Avasail Garcia was acquired for an over 30 pitcher with an injury history. A pitcher then when healthy was much better than any option out there. If Peavy signed for what he was worth it would have been near 20 mil. If you can get any of the FA pitchers out there to sign for significantly less than the worth say 8 mil than it would be worth it. Peavy was much more valuable than any of the current FAs. Not to mention Peavy was just 30 these guys will be 32-34. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:22 PM) Every single one that is worried about the money. Now tell me again why KW decided he didn't want to have a good farm system. If you couldn't read it the first time, why post it again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:22 PM) Every single one that is worried about the money. Now tell me again why KW decided he didn't want to have a good farm system. Because he put all of the money that JR allowed in the budget to the MLB team and didn't allocate it to drafting and development. It's not the fans worry , it's whatever budget JR creates regardless of how much the Sox have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:03 PM) There's a chance for failure, but you are also not mentioning players that could have been traded for decent prospects. Why sign any high priced free agent if some fail? There is just as good of a chance Eaton fails, Davidson fails Garcia fails, and I really have no idea why so many are so concerned about JR's rather flush bank account. The White Sox are not in the same position as a team like the Orioles or the Yankees. I have said previously that, in a different position, I probably wouldn't have any problem with the Sox signing either of these two. I actually like Jimenez, but for the current iteration of the White Sox, it simply does not make sense. They are not a very good team, there's no guarantee of health for these pitchers, they have to give up a 2nd round pick, and you have no idea how these guys will age. The point of signing high priced free agents is that you believe said players can put you over the top, or that they can be apart of the next group of players that will help you win because, due to the nature of the free market in free agency, players will only sign the deal that makes the most sense for them financially, thus you will pay a premium for these players. I have yet to see an argument as to why that makes any sense. The arguments of "they can trade them later" and "adding talent isn't a bad thing" don't make sense because you can't guarantee that you can trade them later and ultimately, you may not be adding any talent. I honestly would not be surprised to see both Johnson and Paulino put up numbers comparable to both Santana and Jimenez this year at a fraction of the cost. Yes, you are correct that there's a chance that Eaton, Davidson, Abreu, Garcia, or whoever fail, but the difference with those guys is that the White Sox have absolutely 0 depth there in future years. In 2015, the White Sox have Sale, Quintana, Johnson, Danks, Rienzo, Surkamp, Beck, and several other lesser minor league prospects under team control still. They added talent in areas of weakness in the organization with their moves for positional players. Right now, the starting pitching has enough depth that they should see what they have. And before Marty chimes in with "the starting rotation depth is vastly overrated," I am aware. They still have 2 good pitchers in Sale and Quintana, a large contract in Danks, and 4 other pitchers in Johnson, Paulino, Rienzo, and Surkamp to fill out the rotation. 7 guys is more than enough depth going into the season. QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:07 PM) Apparently they are if what everyone says is true and Santana is going to get more money than Peavy. Peavy took a home town discount. He could have easily gotten a bigger contract last year, but he's made enough money in his career and he wanted to help win in Chicago. However, he wanted to win in general too, and his contract allowed for greater facilitation for a trade and that scenario arose. Had he signed a 4 year, $60 million deal last year with, say, the Phillies, do you think he has a World Series ring right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:23 PM) Because he put all of the money that JR allowed in the budget to the MLB team and didn't allocate it to drafting and development. It's not the fans worry , it's whatever budget JR creates regardless of how much the Sox have. It still has something to do with whom you chose. It wasn't like Mike Trout signed for millions more than Jared Mitchell. But there were errors up and down drafts for years. The fact is, if you are going to say you could have a good farm system if you wanted, why would anyone NOT want to have a good farm system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:22 PM) A pitcher then when healthy was much better than any option out there. If Peavy signed for what he was worth it would have been near 20 mil. If you can get any of the FA pitchers out there to sign for significantly less than the worth say 8 mil than it would be worth it. Peavy was much more valuable than any of the current FAs. Not to mention Peavy was just 30 these guys will be 32-34. Actually, if the Sox signed either Jimenez or Santana and traded them in July, they will be younger than Peavy was when they traded him to the Red Sox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:30 PM) Actually, if the Sox signed either Jimenez or Santana and traded them in July, they will be younger than Peavy was when they traded him to the Red Sox. And probably will still have more years and dollars than Peavy was due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:30 PM) Actually, if the Sox signed either Jimenez or Santana and traded them in July, they will be younger than Peavy was when they traded him to the Red Sox. The Sox will not be in a position to trade Jimenez or Santana in July. -You aren't going to sign them to a 3-4 year contract just to trade them. That is incredibly risky and foolish and you likely aren't going to get the value you believe they should for them at that time. -Neither Jimenez nor Santana are going to sign a 1-2 year contract which would actually further facilitate a trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:35 PM) And probably will still have more years and dollars than Peavy was due. Only because Jake's rib injury last season killed any hope of his $15 million option being good to go for 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:35 PM) The Sox will not be in a position to trade Jimenez or Santana in July. -You aren't going to sign them to a 3-4 year contract just to trade them. That is incredibly risky and foolish and you likely aren't going to get the value you believe they should for them at that time. -Neither Jimenez nor Santana are going to sign a 1-2 year contract which would actually further facilitate a trade. How would you know this? Right now their value is suppressed being later in the offseason and some teams would have to forfeit a 1st round pick for them. If they pitched like they did in 2013, contending teams would certainly give value if you signed them to a 3 or 4 year contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:38 PM) How would you know this? Right now their value is suppressed being later in the offseason and some teams would have to forfeit a 1st round pick for them. If they pitched like they did in 2013, contending teams would certainly give value if you signed them to a 3 or 4 year contract. Becsuse nobody ever f***ing does that, except the Marlins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
royoung Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:38 PM) How would you know this? Right now their value is suppressed being later in the offseason and some teams would have to forfeit a 1st round pick for them. If they pitched like they did in 2013, contending teams would certainly give value if you signed them to a 3 or 4 year contract. If nobody wants to gamble on the price, the years, and an amateur draft pick as the cost, why would they do so six months later for professional talent? It still doesn't make sense for them and the fact that we would be shopping them signals other teams that we want salary relief. It is extremely rare for players to be traded within a year of signing a long term deal because the team that does that (like the Marlins) looks like complete fools. And all that is assuming that they pitch well enough to EXCEED the value of the contract we paid them, which is very unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:38 PM) How would you know this? Right now their value is suppressed being later in the offseason and some teams would have to forfeit a 1st round pick for them. If they pitched like they did in 2013, contending teams would certainly give value if you signed them to a 3 or 4 year contract. But there are still plenty of teams interested in them. The Yankees could certainly use another starting pitcher, the Orioles are said to have interest, and I've seen the Twins doing their homework on them. Those teams make sense because they have absolutely nothing for pitching depth. Now, to actually outbid those teams, you are giving them more money than anyone else was willing to surrender. If that was the case then, why would that situation suddenly change 5 months from now? In all likelihood, those teams moved on and added someone else or they allotted the money elsewhere. Beyond that, if you sign a guy to a 4 year contract and then trade him 3 months into it, do you really think future free agents are going to view Chicago as a viable destination? I sure as hell wouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:42 PM) Becsuse nobody ever f***ing does that, except the Marlins. This is totally different than the Marlins. You can be very upfront with them. Hey, if we aren't winning, we will move you to a team that is. The way the compensation works, signing them to a multi-year contract now is doing them a big favor. And they probably would appreciate they get paid and one way or another if they pitch well, they will wind up with a contender. And Theo signs guys to flip. Billy Beane traded for guys to flip it winning wasn't in the equation. The Marlins doing what they did was a slap at the fans and the state after building them that stadium, taking their payroll down to nothing. The baseball side of that wasn't so bad. They wind up with a couple of decent prospects. Edited January 27, 2014 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:42 PM) Becsuse nobody ever f***ing does that, except the Marlins. I love how this thread consists of conventional wisdom being thrown out because one time something odd happened, but then stuff that is only done one time is accepted as a gospel way of doing business in MLB. This thread is just getting absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:46 PM) This is totally different than the Marlins. You can be very upfront with them. Hey, if we aren't winning, we will move you to a team that is. The way the compensation works, signing them to a multi-year contract now is doing them a big favor. And they probably would appreciate they get paid and one way or another if they pitch well, they will wind up with a contender. Because that's what I want to hear if I'm Ubaldo Jimenez - if we aren't winning, we're going to force you to move to a different city that was not of your choosing against your will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:46 PM) This is totally different than the Marlins. You can be very upfront with them. Hey, if we aren't winning, we will move you to a team that is. The way the compensation works, signing them to a multi-year contract now is doing them a big favor. And they probably would appreciate they get paid and one way or another if they pitch well, they will wind up with a contender. And Theo signs guys to flip. Billy Beane traded for guys to flip it winning wasn't in the equation. Yeah, you mean when Theo signed Scott Feldman on a 1 year, prove it deal, and then dealt him for two guys the Orioles had DFA'd? And when Billy Beane acquired Matt Holliday when he had 1 year left on his deal so he could either flip him or get draft pick compensation for him? (BTW, the Matt Holliday trade ended up being the A's trading Carlos Gonzalez, Greg Smith, and Huston Street for Clayton Mortensen, Shane Peterson, and Brett Wallace. You tell me how that one worked out for Beane) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:48 PM) Because that's what I want to hear if I'm Ubaldo Jimenez - if we aren't winning, we're going to force you to move to a different city that was not of your choosing against your will! Then he won't sign. No biggie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 27, 2014 -> 02:48 PM) Because that's what I want to hear if I'm Ubaldo Jimenez - if we aren't winning, we're going to force you to move to a different city that was not of your choosing against your will! What could be a more popular recruiting pitch than, "you are just coming here so we can trade you later!" ? Players want to control their own destiny. Why the heck would they look to give up control of their location? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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