Grab a SP now

[lasttriptotulsa]

For the record I've been saying Santana the whole time not Jimenez but.....

 

Why is 2015 not a factor? Why not sign a really good #3 starter now for 12 or 13 mil per year? Can we agree that if the team wants to compete in 2015 another SP is going to be have to signed or acquired somehow? Why wait and pay a premium price when there is a more than serviceable SP now at a bargain price? Santana is 31, not 37, I think its more than reasonable to say that he should pitch at a high level for another 4 years. If you would have asked me 2 months ago whether or not I thought the Sox should sign Ervin Santana I would have said heck no without hesitation. But at some point you have to factor in value and capitalize on a buyers market.

 

And do people really think this organization is going to spend 90+ million on 1 of the top SP's being mentioned for next years FA class? Not going to happen.

 

Why wouldnt they spend $90 million on a top end starter? They just proved they were willing to go at least to $120 million on a guy who has never pitched in the majors.

[BlackSox13]

If the Sox were closer to contending I would be all for Santana but Jimenez? No way. Jimenez appears to be be a classic example of pitching well just before FA. Yeah his 2013 numbers looked good but he walked ALOT of batters as he always has and that will catch up to him, thankfully he won't be wearing a Sox uni when it does.

 

I did like the idea of Garza but after seeing some good points made in this thread and the Hahn thread I've changed my mind regardless if the brewers do not sign him.

 

Where the Sox currently stand it makes sense to see what the young pitchers can do in 2014. After this season we can make adjustments through FA, trades or even call ups. We'll also have more salary coming off the books with Dunn and possibly others too.

[Kyyle23]

I just don't see why the money has to be spent right now on merely anyone. Sure, the money is there, that doesn't mean it has to be thrown at the first jamoke you see.

[Rowand44]

I just don't see why the money has to be spent right now on merely anyone. Sure, the money is there, that doesn't mean it has to be thrown at the first jamoke you see.

You just wanted to type 'jamoke'

 

 

[Kyyle23]

You just wanted to type 'jamoke'

 

been trying to fit it in all day

[ShandyMan]

I'm slightly disturbed that we're talking about signing Jimenez to a multi year 40 million dollar contract

 

I can't even believe there is 6 pages of it....

 

If we sign someone, it'll be a Tommy Hanson on a 1 year deal with low salary.

 

 

NOT 40 mil on a mediocre pitcher

[greg775]

If you take your premise to its logical end, Chris Sale should sit out next year. His health is a much bigger risk to the franchise than any contract the Sox can enter into.

 

I do agree with Marty on this. For all the people who have written off this upcoming season and say the Sox have no chance (which I'd agree with if Hahn doesn't make another deal or two), why even pitch Sale? Why risk it? Put him on ice so to speak for a full season and just save him until the team is ready to win. I mean what can he possibly gain from more wear and tear on the arm? If this season is just a "get a ton of at bats for Abreu, Eaton, Davidson, Semien, Phegs, Garcia, Viciedo campaign" why risk Sale's health til the team actually needs him? Sale already knows all there is to know about pitching. Any innings in a season we don't contend risk his long term health, right??

 

I prefer Hahn make another move or 2 and try to contend this year.

Edited January 24, 2014 by greg775

[Quin]

I do agree with Marty on this. For all the people who have written off this upcoming season and say the Sox have no chance (which I'd agree with if Hahn doesn't make another deal or two), why even pitch Sale? Why risk it? Put him on ice so to speak for a full season and just save him until the team is ready to win. I mean what can he possibly gain from more wear and tear on the arm? If this season is just a "get a ton of at bats for Abreu, Eaton, Davidson, Semien, Phegs, Garcia, Viciedo campaign" why risk Sale's health til the team actually needs him? Sale already knows all there is to know about pitching. Any innings in a season we don't contend risk his long term health, right??

 

I prefer Hahn make another move or 2 and try to contend this year.

 

Cause Sale can continue improving and stuff. And resting him a year would be awful for his arm when he returns.

[Harry Chappas]

In a very nice Tom Ford tuxedo...very impressive, CC.

Sign bronson arroyo he is pals with sale

[caulfield12]

If we were all in this year, we wouldn't have gaping holes at catcher and we wouldn't have traded Reed for Davidson.

 

We're one year away from being in position to compete and make another big signing.

 

You could even argue that if EVERYTHING broke well in the first half that we'd be in an excellent position to make a run at it in the 2nd half of the season.

 

In the meantime, we have to figure out exactly what Danks, Johnson, Paulino and possibly Rienzo and Surkamp are going to give us. No reason not to run with them now and let the chips fall where they may.

 

And even then, it's tricky to know when to trade a pitcher. We held onto Humber too long when we might have been able to trade him and get value in return. Same with Gavin Floyd and Jesse Crain. Jenks, Crede....lots of examples exist. The dream scenario is of course the one where you trade a fixer upper like Loiaza for a Jose Contreras.

 

We've spent the last two or three years now waiting to get out from under the Dunn and Danks deals. We have taken on a pretty decent sized risk in Abreu. Let's see what we have on July 15th.

Edited January 24, 2014 by caulfield12

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I can't remember which FA pitchers require a draft pick comp, but I don't want ANY of those guys. The guy I want the most is Jimenez, unless he costs a draft pick. I'd also take a flier on Roy Oswalt on either a minor league deal if he'd take one, or like a $2-3M major league deal.

[ScottyDo]

1) Marty & co. are missing the biggest risk of all: that we sign a pitcher to an expensive 4 year contract, we have a bad 2014, meaning we're not even on schedule to compete in 2015, and we have just lost the "good" part of the contract in time for us to compete with an expensive, declining 34 year old pitcher on our hands.

 

2) I understand that our farm system is not good, but we're not in so desperate of shape that we need to spend $14M annually plus a 2nd round draft pick on a gamble to slightly restock our system by later trading this person.

 

There is really just no reason to take a risk now when you can do it later, after you have a better handle on whether or not the risk is likely to pay off. And it's really absurd that anyone would be so in love with this pitcher market that we would need to strike while the iron's hot. The iron is not hot. Yankees/BoSox/LAD or not, these guys are pretty crappy pitchers.

[caulfield12]

I can't remember which FA pitchers require a draft pick comp, but I don't want ANY of those guys. The guy I want the most is Jimenez, unless he costs a draft pick. I'd also take a flier on Roy Oswalt on either a minor league deal if he'd take one, or like a $2-3M major league deal.

 

 

Oswalt five years too late.

 

Santana and Jimenez, 2nd round draft picks, Garza nothing because he was traded in mid-season (and now has a looming PR disaster with the mysterious physical results, just like Balfour).

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Oswalt five years too late.

 

Santana and Jimenez, 2nd round draft picks, Garza nothing because he was traded in mid-season (and now has a looming PR disaster with the mysterious physical results, just like Balfour).

 

I did not want Santana. Bummer on Jimenez. Had totally forgotten that Garza was not eligible for a pick. He would have been a great pick up for us to trade midseason or next offseason.

[ScottyDo]

Add Maeda to the list of possible targets next year. Plus the names listed above. Next year's FA class is likely just better.

 

I don't get the impatience.

[Dick Allen]

Last year if you knew the Sox would lose 99 games, the consensus would have been signing Jake Peavy was dumb. Wait until you are ready to win. But signing Peavy ultimately got you Garcia. I think the plan would be the same. Sign a guy to help you win, if you don't, it increases the pitching stock and someone could be traded near the deadline for prospects. It could all blow up in your face, But if you have some money, it is worth a consideration.

[ScottyDo]

Last year if you knew the Sox would lose 99 games, the consensus would have been signing Jake Peavy was dumb. Wait until you are ready to win. But signing Peavy ultimately got you Garcia. I think the plan would be the same. Sign a guy to help you win, if you don't, it increases the pitching stock and someone could be traded near the deadline for prospects. It could all blow up in your face, But if you have some money, it is worth a consideration.

That benefit seems greatly mitigated by the loss of a draft pick. Risks mentioned + $10-15M/yr + 2nd round pick for Prospect X does not seem that worth it.

[Hawkfan]

I'm happy with the rotation if Danks is healthy and ready(sorry I like john Danks, f***n sue me). If it turns out one god damn person on our team can hit a baseball into the field of play, only then would I risk spending on a pitcher.

 

[caulfield12]

Last year if you knew the Sox would lose 99 games, the consensus would have been signing Jake Peavy was dumb. Wait until you are ready to win. But signing Peavy ultimately got you Garcia. I think the plan would be the same. Sign a guy to help you win, if you don't, it increases the pitching stock and someone could be traded near the deadline for prospects. It could all blow up in your face, But if you have some money, it is worth a consideration.

 

 

But we were just coming off a season where we'd barely missed the playoffs, so those circumstances don't apply to bringing someone in from outside. Schneider was familiar with his (Peavy's) work ethic and competitiveness. Plus, Santana and Jimenez were duds for much of the last 3 years before coming on in 2013. They looked like 3/4 guys at best for most of that time.

 

Peavy signing was a bit of a make-good, too, since he was injured for least half of his Sox career.

 

 

Trying to get someone like that isn't exactly the equivalent of the Royals and Gil Meche, but we need to be at least one of the middle ten teams in baseball before we go after another FA pitcher not named Tanaka.

Edited January 24, 2014 by caulfield12

[hogan873]

If you take your premise to its logical end, Chris Sale should sit out next year. His health is a much bigger risk to the franchise than any contract the Sox can enter into.

 

 

I do agree with Marty on this. For all the people who have written off this upcoming season and say the Sox have no chance (which I'd agree with if Hahn doesn't make another deal or two), why even pitch Sale? Why risk it? Put him on ice so to speak for a full season and just save him until the team is ready to win. I mean what can he possibly gain from more wear and tear on the arm? If this season is just a "get a ton of at bats for Abreu, Eaton, Davidson, Semien, Phegs, Garcia, Viciedo campaign" why risk Sale's health til the team actually needs him? Sale already knows all there is to know about pitching. Any innings in a season we don't contend risk his long term health, right??

 

I prefer Hahn make another move or 2 and try to contend this year.

Talk about trolling. Sale can continue to improve as he pitches. Sitting him for a year (I'm still baffled by the mere suggestion) would do nothing but possibly cause him to regress. There are health risks for anyone, and Sale is not a bigger health risk than any deal the Sox can enter into. Signing a 31 year old pitcher to a 4 year $40MM+ contract has much more risk.

 

Here's the point that you are missing (or refuse to accept): There is no reason to go spend money on a veteran starting pitcher just to sign a veteran. It doesn't make any sense, and we should just stop talking about it.

[Dick Allen]

Talk about trolling. Sale can continue to improve as he pitches. Sitting him for a year (I'm still baffled by the mere suggestion) would do nothing but possibly cause him to regress. There are health risks for anyone, and Sale is not a bigger health risk than any deal the Sox can enter into. Signing a 31 year old pitcher to a 4 year $40MM+ contract has much more risk.

 

Here's the point that you are missing (or refuse to accept): There is no reason to go spend money on a veteran starting pitcher just to sign a veteran. It doesn't make any sense, and we should just stop talking about it.

If it is a good pitcher it increases the talent level and inventory of the pitching staff, and the ability to turn so,e of that inventory into other pieces. I am not thrilled with Jimenez or Santana moving forward, but if the White Sox think they will be quality pitchers for a couple of years, it makes a lot of sense signing them and flipping them or trading someone else because of their presence.

 

The White Sox are running out of parts to trade. You want to rebuild through the draft, just look at Theo. it takes a long time. The goal is to get better. The we lost 99 games so we should not sign good players makes no sense to me.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Dick Allen

[lasttriptotulsa]

If the Sox could have gotten Garza for the reported 4/52 the Brewers did, I would have been ok with that. Main reason being he didn't require giving up a draft pick. I want no part of Jimenez or Santana unless they end up signing for a 2 year deal for fairly cheap in which case I would sign them and try to flip them at the deadline or in the offseason.

[hogan873]

If it is a good pitcher it increases the talent level and inventory of the pitching staff, and the ability to turn so,e of that inventory into other pieces. I am not thrilled with Jimenez or Santana moving forward, but if the White Sox think they will be quality pitchers for a couple of years, it makes a lot of sense signing them and flipping them or trading someone else because of their presence.

 

The White Sox are running out of parts to trade. You want to rebuild through the draft, just look at Theo. it takes a long time. The goal is to get better. The we lost 99 games so we should not sign good players makes no sense to me.

Therein lies the problem. Looking at the list of available SPs, which ones have a good chance of being either good for a few years or good long enough to flip for more young talent? It's a gamble with most of those guys, especially considering what the price would be. I'm all for signing someone who can help the team in 2014, but they Sox really need to consider what will happen after 2014. Who knows, one of these guys could be lightning in the bottle. Maybe they sign aguy who tears it up the first half and is then traded for some great young talent. We'll look back and say that it was a good signing. But if they sign someone who stinks it up who goes out with an injury, we'll say it was a terrible signing. There's a ton of risk right now, and the Sox have to weigh those risks against possible rewards.

[TheFutureIsNear]

Therein lies the problem. Looking at the list of available SPs, which ones have a good chance of being either good for a few years or good long enough to flip for more young talent? It's a gamble with most of those guys, especially considering what the price would be. I'm all for signing someone who can help the team in 2014, but they Sox really need to consider what will happen after 2014. Who knows, one of these guys could be lightning in the bottle. Maybe they sign aguy who tears it up the first half and is then traded for some great young talent. We'll look back and say that it was a good signing. But if they sign someone who stinks it up who goes out with an injury, we'll say it was a terrible signing. There's a ton of risk right now, and the Sox have to weigh those risks against possible rewards.

 

 

Ervin Santana has been good 4 out of the past 6 years pitching in the AL. There isn't nearly the risk everybody is making it out to be. Jimenez? Yeah, pretty big risk. But Ervin Santana has proven that he's a well above average mlb starting pitcher at this point. And those guys rarely go for less than 15 million a year unless they are at the end of their careers.

[Marty34]

1) Marty & co. are missing the biggest risk of all: that we sign a pitcher to an expensive 4 year contract, we have a bad 2014, meaning we're not even on schedule to compete in 2015, and we have just lost the "good" part of the contract in time for us to compete with an expensive, declining 34 year old pitcher on our hands.

 

2) I understand that our farm system is not good, but we're not in so desperate of shape that we need to spend $14M annually plus a 2nd round draft pick on a gamble to slightly restock our system by later trading this person.

 

There is really just no reason to take a risk now when you can do it later, after you have a better handle on whether or not the risk is likely to pay off. And it's really absurd that anyone would be so in love with this pitcher market that we would need to strike while the iron's hot. The iron is not hot. Yankees/BoSox/LAD or not, these guys are pretty crappy pitchers.

 

Dick Allen made a great point about the Sox running out of players to trade. That's the reason you sign a pitcher now so you have the flexibility to deal a pitcher next year because if you are waiting on the farm system to produce they might as well put Sale on the block.