Grab a SP now

[ScottyDo]

It is reasonable because if you suck, its a $5-7 million commitment and all you need is a solid 3 months of production and you acquire prospects who have already developed, instead of waiting for a guy for years and years and years.

 

If you don't think the Sox need a catcher, you are kidding yourself.

They do need a catcher eventually. It's not absolutely critical that it happen now.

[witesoxfan]

What hitters are added? I can't predict if the lineup will be capable of hitting well enough to win. But I do think Sale, Q, and Santana is more than enough pitching to win a world series. Without adding another #2 or #3 I don't think the pitching staff is good enough to be a serious contender though. And while I don't think 2014 is going to be any better than a 80 win season, but 2015 playoffs are more than within reach and that should be the goal.

 

Then why not wait until next year to add another starter who will be a year younger (at least) than Santana and make the push then?

 

Honestly, the first question you asked is my entire point. Without knowing what the Sox have, adding old starting pitchers to a young, rebuilding team is a bad, bad move.

 

The issue is what you can buy with $40M today is a lot better than what you can in a year or two.

 

Yeah I'm going to disagree entirely with this. Adding a starting pitcher to the current White Sox adds very little marginal utility. Adding a catcher next year, whether by free agency or by trade, for even $20 million purchases much, much more value than does the starting pitcher.

 

Vague, blanket statements like this are often - if not always - wrong and easy to disprove.

[ScottyDo]

Dude, the second round pick you let go to get Jimenez can be recouped by trading another starter next offseason.

Okay so you're saying if Jimenez performs well we can trade him to recoup that pick. Fine, it's a wash. If he performs poorly, we can trade Quintana or someone next year to recoup the pick. But we could just trade Quintana NOW and not have to recoup ANY picks and our value is higher. So you're spending money on a possible wash (with some chance of getting more) with the possibility of lost value (we liquidated the value of Q, plus lost a pick and replaced Q with a bad Jimenez).

 

No. Just no.

[Dick Allen]

Okay so you're saying if Jimenez performs well we can trade him to recoup that pick. Fine, it's a wash. If he performs poorly, we can trade Quintana or someone next year to recoup the pick. But we could just trade Quintana NOW and not have to recoup ANY picks and our value is higher. So you're spending money on a possible wash (with some chance of getting more) with the possibility of lost value (we liquidated the value of Q, plus lost a pick and replaced Q with a bad Jimenez).

 

No. Just no.

What would you rather have, what the Sox acquired for Jake Peavy or a 2nd round pick?

 

We are getting to the time of the offseason where relative bargains can be had. There are some decent names who right now appear to be available next offseason. Certainly some will not be on the board, and others will probably want what Tanaka got, and a couple of them will probably get it.

 

If the Sox don't want to commit to a guy like Santana or Jimenez, fine. But they should definitely be shopping the next tier down.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Marty34]

Okay so you're saying if Jimenez performs well we can trade him to recoup that pick. Fine, it's a wash. If he performs poorly, we can trade Quintana or someone next year to recoup the pick. But we could just trade Quintana NOW and not have to recoup ANY picks and our value is higher. So you're spending money on a possible wash (with some chance of getting more) with the possibility of lost value (we liquidated the value of Q, plus lost a pick and replaced Q with a bad Jimenez).

 

No. Just no.

 

That 2nd round pick could wind up not being very good.

[witesoxfan]

It is reasonable because if you suck, its a $5-7 million commitment and all you need is a solid 3 months of production and you acquire prospects who have already developed, instead of waiting for a guy for years and years and years.

 

If you don't think the Sox need a catcher, you are kidding yourself.

 

But they have to not suck, which is an extreme risk with both Jimenez and Santana.

 

I also am aware that the catching situation right now is ugly. As I said, it's very likely that all 3-4 catchers they use this year will no longer be viewed as viable alternatives beyond this year. Still, the downside of using Phegley, Flowers, Nieto, and Jimenez this year is that they suck, but the team is not going to be competitive anyways, so you may as well see if you can find a catcher that you can count on moving forward, at least in a back up role, moving foward.

[witesoxfan]

That 2nd round pick could wind up not being very good.

 

So could the pitcher you are spending $40 million on. Which carries greater risk?

[Marty34]

Then why not wait until next year to add another starter who will be a year younger (at least) than Santana and make the push then?

 

Honestly, the first question you asked is my entire point. Without knowing what the Sox have, adding old starting pitchers to a young, rebuilding team is a bad, bad move.

 

 

 

Yeah I'm going to disagree entirely with this. Adding a starting pitcher to the current White Sox adds very little marginal utility. Adding a catcher next year, whether by free agency or by trade, for even $20 million purchases much, much more value than does the starting pitcher.

 

Vague, blanket statements like this are often - if not always - wrong and easy to disprove.

 

The Sox are running out of players to trade that anyone wants. That's as big of a reason to get a SP now as any.

[ScottyDo]

That 2nd round pick could wind up not being very good.

Absolutely. And they have a chance of being great. It's uncertain. That's why you load as much talent as you can at all levels. And precisely why, at this point, there is no advantage to signing people that come with an INHERENT COST in another area of talent acquisition when you could just get other guys that don't cost much of anything. That's why you spend, spend, spend on Tanaka but not on Jimenez or Santana.

[witesoxfan]

What would you rather have, what the Sox acquired for Jake Peavy or a 2nd round pick?

 

This is a loaded question, because there's no guarantee you can same return on Jimenez/Santana as you did for Peavy. There's no guarantee you can trade either of them without having to eat money first. Hell, there's no guarantee you can even TRADE either one of them.

 

 

[Marty34]

So could the pitcher you are spending $40 million on. Which carries greater risk?

 

it's already assumed here the FA pitcher signed will be bad.

[witesoxfan]

The Sox are running out of players to trade that anyone wants. That's as big of a reason to get a SP now as any.

 

Really? You are telling me no one is going to trade for Daniel Webb or Chris Sale or Jose Quintana or Matt Davidson or Jose Abreu or Avisail Garcia or Adam Eaton or Dayan Viciedo or Alejandro De Aza or Jake Petricka or Erik Johnson? I could continue but I figured 11 was a good start.

[witesoxfan]

it's already assumed here the FA pitcher signed will be bad.

 

Then they better not sign him.

[ScottyDo]

What would you rather have, what the Sox acquired for Jake Peavy or a 2nd round pick?

 

We are getting to the time of the offseason where relative bargains can be had. There are some decent names who right now appear to be available next offseason. Certainly some will not be on the board, and others will probably want what Tanaka got, and a couple of them will probably get it.

 

If the Sox don't want to commit to a guy like Santana or Jimenez, fine. But they should definitely be shopping the next tier down.

Those guys aren't the bargains, though. The real bargains are the guys who might have something left in the tank and you take a flier on them. They don't cost you picks OR money. I am fine with the Sox shopping the next tier down, as long as it's not costing guys development time that the Sox feel would be useful for them. Like, if Rienzo's not ready, sure, get a dirt cheap innings eater. Like...Paulino (doesn't have to be him, but a guy like him).

[ILMOU]

It is reasonable because if you suck, its a $5-7 million commitment and all you need is a solid 3 months of production and you acquire prospects who have already developed, instead of waiting for a guy for years and years and years.

 

If you don't think the Sox need a catcher, you are kidding yourself.

 

I'm totally with you, DA, on this part of the argument. For all of the "legitimate-to-varying-degrees" excuses for Phegley, he put up a .522OPS - that's 200 pts. lower than Tank, who we also complain about. Coupled with lousy catching skills, Phegs doesn't need to merely improve, he needs to become a completely different player. And he's not all that young. I'm not holding my breath.

 

As far as adding a pitcher now, if we must, I'd rather go Arroyo for two years if possible, with the intent to flip. A more consistent producer who won't cost the draft pick.

 

Hahn's played these scenarios out in his head more than all of us put together. I'm sure he doesn't want 2 Danks situations at the same time, and doesn't want a guy he doesn't want to be stuck here forever.

 

I trust him, and there's still time to make moves, even if he's screwed the pooch on the C position to this point.

[Dick Allen]

Really? You are telling me no one is going to trade for Daniel Webb or Chris Sale or Jose Quintana or Matt Davidson or Jose Abreu or Avisail Garcia or Adam Eaton or Dayan Viciedo or Alejandro De Aza or Jake Petricka or Erik Johnson? I could continue but I figured 11 was a good start.

But aren't those the guys you want to keep? There is not a surplus of talent in this organization. Except for people collecting a check from the White Sox, every baseball person will tell you that. Why are you against the White Sox adding good players?

[ScottyDo]

Also, DA, I really am curious whether or not you liked the EJax signing? Personally, I hate it because of the potential for exactly how it's turned out (so far), but I really see the situations as parallel.

Edited January 24, 2014 by ScottyDo

[witesoxfan]

But aren't those the guys you want to keep? There is not a surplus of talent in this organization. Except for people collecting a check from the White Sox, every baseball person will tell you that. Why are you against the White Sox adding good players?

 

Well here I thought they may have wanted to keep Addison Reed and/or Hector Santiago, but Hahn proved creative and capable of getting great, diversified value out of those two. Maybe the organization feels comfortable with Marcus Semien at 3B and the opportunity comes to acquire Buster Posey. Obviously, this wouldn't happen, but work with me. If the Giants and Sox agree on a preliminary package, the White Sox aren't going to say "No, unfortunately even though Matt Davidson is the one and only player in the organization you'd take to seal this deal, we just can't trade him at this point."

 

The initial point was that the Sox are running out of players that other teams want to trade for, when in reality, that could not be further from the truth. The truth is that the White Sox are running out of players they want or are willing to trade. That is a very good thing and it lets you know that the rebuild has gone very well thus far.

Edited January 24, 2014 by witesoxfan

[ILMOU]

Also, DA, I really am curious whether or not you liked the EJax signing? Personally, I hate it because the potential for exactly how it's turned out (so far), but I really see the situations as parallel.

 

Yeah, EJax is so flippable isn't he?

 

Santana enjoyed the HR-unfriendly confines of Kaufmann in a way that he couldn't at the Cell - Jimenez would be a better fit. Either or both could become EJax here.

[ScottyDo]

Also worth noting: the guys we have traded so far did not cost us any talent when we traded them.

 

Imagine if

 

Peavy = Avi

 

turned into:

 

Peavy = Avi - Johnson

 

or Santiago = Eaton

 

turned into:

 

Santiago = Eaton - Beck

 

Suddenly the system atrophes to an appreciable degree.

[Dick Allen]

Well here I thought they may have wanted to keep Addison Reed and/or Hector Santiago, but Hahn proved creative and capable of getting great, diversified value out of those two. Maybe the organization feels comfortable with Marcus Semien at 3B and the opportunity comes to acquire Buster Posey. Obviously, this wouldn't happen, but work with me. If the Giants and Sox agree on a preliminary package, the White Sox aren't going to say "No, unfortunately even though Matt Davidson is the one and only player in the organization you'd take to seal this deal, we just can't trade him at this point."

 

The initial point was that the Sox are running out of players that other teams want to trade for, when in reality, that could not be further from the truth. The truth is that the White Sox are running out of players they want or are willing to trade. That is a very good thing and it lets you know that the rebuild has gone very well thus far.

The White Sox don't have a lot of guys they can get much for. That is true. And say they wanted Posey. Realistically, of the 11 guys you mentioned , unless you are trading Chris Sale, it is going to take several of them for even a consideration. It is one reason why adding some pitching right now or other players, even if it means guys like Rienzo have to pitch in the bullpen or Charlotte makes sense. You need to add talent to the organization, not just watch several almost guaranteed to fail prospects play to say you gave them a shot.

[Dick Allen]

Also, DA, I really am curious whether or not you liked the EJax signing? Personally, I hate it because of the potential for exactly how it's turned out (so far), but I really see the situations as parallel.

EJax historically has a higher ERA than those guys. I wouldn't want to pay him what the Cubs paid him and it wasn't like he was coming off a stellar year in WASH. I think Santana and Jimenez are both better than him. I could see where you would think it's the same thing, but again, I'm not sure I would want either. I'd probably talk to Cooper. The thing is, the Cubs were going to be bad with Jackson or without. He can still go out this year and pitch really well and they will be able to flip him. It won't be as advantageous as flipping him last year, but it still gets the job done.

 

There is risk with every player you acquire performing. There is a better chance Jimenez and Santana have better WARs from here on out than the second round pick, whoever that turns out to be. So to me, the compensation pick wouldn't come into play deciding whether or not I was interested in signing them. I would only use it to lower the contract.

[TheFutureIsNear]

Then why not wait until next year to add another starter who will be a year younger (at least) than Santana and make the push then?

 

Honestly, the first question you asked is my entire point. Without knowing what the Sox have, adding old starting pitchers to a young, rebuilding team is a bad, bad move.

 

 

 

Yeah I'm going to disagree entirely with this. Adding a starting pitcher to the current White Sox adds very little marginal utility. Adding a catcher next year, whether by free agency or by trade, for even $20 million purchases much, much more value than does the starting pitcher.

 

Vague, blanket statements like this are often - if not always - wrong and easy to disprove.

 

 

So you're telling me that A)you believe you can go out any year and sign a #3 starter for $50M and B) you are fine with not competing in 2015 either?

 

Seems to me like you are content with sitting around and waiting to see if a bunch of fringe talent works out and if not then you go out and sign someone else. Why not sure up your starting 5 this year and then sign a catcher + a reliever next year? Adding $13 to the payroll this year isn't stopping any progress or building.

[southsider2k5]

The Sox are not building through the draft, if they were they would have traded for players in AA and below.

 

What they are not doing is rebuilding just one way.

[southsider2k5]

That 2nd round pick could wind up not being very good.

 

So could Jimenez.