Ventura to get extended

[Rowand44]

I'm somewhere between "I like this" and "don't really care", but I don't dislike it.

Basically. He's been here for 2 years...1 good, 1 awful, I'm very "whatever" about this. I'm pretty much that way about baseball managers in general(unless you're Ozzie) so I'll just wait and see on this.

[joeynach]

I am not a big fan of this move nor Robin Ventura. He hasn't shown me anything of substance to prove he a good in game manager, situational analyzer, or open and willing to employ the tactics of modern metrics and theory. In fact I think he has proven the exact opposite, I dont believe he values outs and has shown a willingness to give them away (bunts, steals, sacrifices), especially early in the game. I don't believe he is a real student of the game at this point, I thought his support of the now departed Jeff Manto and his vocal stance against working counts, walks, and OBP was a big organizational mistake. I would have been happy to see Hahn let RV play out his contract for this year while he seeks "his guy" next offseason. Maybe someone who is more progressive in his tactics and someone that the new young players that Hahn has brought in can relate too.

[Wanne]

I agree with Rock...I think Robin is good for a rebuild with the kids. I think Steverson will be a much more important figure...but Robin's steady hand will be appreciated. I have no problem with this. I'm a little surprised since I was unsure of Robin's commitment to the Sox long term as a manager.

Edited January 25, 2014 by Wanne

[beautox]

I'm in this camp. Would like to see less robotic bullpen mgmt., though.

 

I disagree Robin did a great job managing leverage in our bullpen last year nearly as good as the red sox link

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I am not a big fan of this move nor Robin Ventura. He hasn't shown me anything of substance to prove he a good in game manager, situational analyzer, or open and willing to employ the tactics of modern metrics and theory. In fact I think he has proven the exact opposite, I dont believe he values outs and has shown a willingness to give them away (bunts, steals, sacrifices), especially early in the game. I don't believe he is a real student of the game at this point, I thought his support of the now departed Jeff Manto and his vocal stance against working counts, walks, and OBP was a big organizational mistake. I would have been happy to see Hahn let RV play out his contract for this year while he seeks "his guy" next offseason. Maybe someone who is more progressive in his tactics and someone that the new young players that Hahn has brought in can relate too.

Out of everything said so far I'm closest to agreement on this. I don't think you publicly criticize any of your coaches so his support of Manto doesn't bother me.. The team defense falling apart is very irksome.

 

As far as valueing outs, that's a tough call when your offense is bad . Do you play for an early lead or try to manufature runs with sacrifices ,steals and hit and runs or do you just let guys swing away? So many close games we lost still didn't provide an answer .

 

When it was apparent the Sox were going nowhere, I hated seeing the same lineup every day. What better time to see how players respond in different roles ? Took Robin forever to give Viciedo an extended chance in the middle of the lineup and why did De Aza always have to hit leadoff when he was one of a few guys showing any power and hit well with RISP ?

 

Seemed like Robin was more like Ozzie in that he managed from his gut more than relying on any kind of advanced metrics, but again, it's so hard to tell when your team sucks and most things you try fail, such as pinch hitting. But still I would've liked to see more pinch hitting . Have to play matchups regardless of fail rates because things can turn around just as fast as they failed , but you never know if you don't try.

[greg775]

I'm left wondering why he took the extension now when he wouldnt' take it after 2012.

 

Cause, he's learned he likes the job and of course he likes money. He's decided he could do this awhile.

At least I won't be accused of being an apologist for the manager no matter who he is. Never been crazy about Robin as manager. Of course I was crazy about his predecessor.

[ILMOU]

I disagree Robin did a great job managing leverage in our bullpen last year nearly as good as the red sox link

Well, that article concluded that there was little correlation, if any, between leverage matching and performance, so not sure of your point.

 

BoSox struggled thru Hanrahan and Bailey before giving Koji the job he should have had from day one, so not seeing any brilliance there either.

[Leonard Zelig]

No details on the length of the contract?

[caulfield12]

So strange to see no information about the length of the contract.

 

Is it just through 2015 or beyond that?

 

Weird.

 

Now, from reading the articles, it says "multiyear" so that has to mean at least through 2016?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

www.chicagotribune.com/sports

 

Ventura declined an extension before the 2013 season, but he said Friday the decision wasn't a sign he was uncertain he wanted to manage the Sox. Instead, he said, he wanted Hahn to have another season to judge his performance and their fit together.

 

"A lot had been made of not accepting the extension the year before," Ventura said. "That was just wanting Rick to have a full year. The way I got my job in the first place was different from the way most people get them.

 

"I felt it was fair to him to come into the job and have a full year of being the GM and running it the way he wants. And if he likes the way I do it and we work together and he wanted me to continue, then we would have that discussion."

 

The extension wasn't a big surprise. Ventura had said at the end of 2013 that he wanted to manage beyond his contract and that he still enjoyed his job despite the team's struggles.

 

His participation in a rebuilding phase that includes the additions of young players such as outfielders Avisail Garcia and Adam Eaton and first baseman Jose Abreu has made him feel even more invested, he said.

 

"You're getting younger guys, talented guys, but your guys," Ventura said. "The job doesn't necessarily change as far as enthusiasm, but you're looking at it maybe a little bit differently than if you had guys that were older and a little more veteran. I'm just as excited going into this year as I was the first year."

 

Ventura's even-keeled demeanor drew criticism in 2013 from some observers who wanted to see more fire during his team's poor play. But he and the players frequently said he showed that side privately when needed, and Sox captain Paul Konerko praised Ventura's approach Friday.

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2014 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

I am not a big fan of this move nor Robin Ventura. He hasn't shown me anything of substance to prove he a good in game manager, situational analyzer, or open and willing to employ the tactics of modern metrics and theory. In fact I think he has proven the exact opposite, I dont believe he values outs and has shown a willingness to give them away (bunts, steals, sacrifices), especially early in the game. I don't believe he is a real student of the game at this point, I thought his support of the now departed Jeff Manto and his vocal stance against working counts, walks, and OBP was a big organizational mistake. I would have been happy to see Hahn let RV play out his contract for this year while he seeks "his guy" next offseason. Maybe someone who is more progressive in his tactics and someone that the new young players that Hahn has brought in can relate too.

The 2013 White Sox bunted for sacrifice the least of any team in the major leagues, and had the 3rd fewest attempts of any team this decade.

 

 

[SCCWS]

Well, that article concluded that there was little correlation, if any, between leverage matching and performance, so not sure of your point.

 

BoSox struggled thru Hanrahan and Bailey before giving Koji the job he should have had from day one, so not seeing any brilliance there either.

 

Not true .Hanrahan started as closer and did well but went down with a season ending injury in May. They then went to Bailey who had injury problems as well. He struggled and then they went to Uehara. Remember Uehara had more saves in July-Sept than he did in his 4 year ML career. He was mostly a set-up man previously.

 

[joeynach]

I disagree Robin did a great job managing leverage in our bullpen last year nearly as good as the red sox link

 

I thought there were times where he did a good job with managing the pen, understanding the matchups, and knowing his own guys. Like how in a bases loaded situation with a righty coming up in a tight game you can't actually bring in Nate Jones who is notorious for going ball 1 ball 2 right away. So in terms of that situation I'd say he got it right.

 

However, he bothered me with many times stealing and bunting ahead of your true three outcome Dunn where advancing a runner into scoring position at the risk of giving an out is an absolute waste. Also showed me a lack of understanding when say he would get a leadoff double, then call for a sacrifice to give an out away to advance a guy over to 3rd, setting up a runner at 3rd with 1 out scenario for a hitter like Dunn, Beckham, De Aza......essentially non consistent deep fly ball hitters or your main three outcome guy. Again not worth giving an out away. So when I saw him implore these types of what I would call "default old school" tactics I decided he really wasn't the right manager IMO.

[joeynach]

The 2013 White Sox bunted for sacrifice the least of any team in the major leagues, and had the 3rd fewest attempts of any team this decade.

 

It was more of the situations where he decided to bunt and steal that bothered me; ahead of Dunn for example, or moving a runner over the 3rd to setup a sac fly situation for a guy who isn't a fly ball or high contact rate hitter. Things like that, where the dots wouldn't connect. I saw too many of this from RV to respect his understanding of some of the modern aspects of the game or the tendencies of his hitters under that modern scope.

[Dick Allen]

It was more of the situations where he decided to bunt and steal that bothered me; ahead of Dunn for example, or moving a runner over the 3rd to setup a sac fly situation for a guy who isn't a fly ball or high contact rate hitter. Things like that, where the dots wouldn't connect. I saw too many of this from RV to respect his understanding of some of the modern aspects of the game or the tendencies of his hitters under that modern scope.

No offense but you are moving the goalposts and are full of s***. Dunn batted 4th. I am pretty no one bunted in front of him. Rios stole bases in front of him and was very successful.

The White Sox stole bases at a 73% clip and needed to steal bases to score. Robin used more pinch runners than any manager in 2013.

There was stupid baserunning last year but I find it hard to place blame on a manager when someone gets picked off or misses a sign.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

No offense but you are moving the goalposts and are full of s***. Dunn batted 4th. I am pretty no one bunted in front of him. Rios stole bases in front of him and was very successful.

The White Sox stole bases at a 73% clip and needed to steal bases to score. Robin used more pinch runners than any manager in 2013.

There was stupid baserunning last year but I find it hard to place blame on a manager when someone gets picked off or misses a sign.

White Sox #3 hitters had 1 successful sacrifice bunt last year. They were 1 of only 5 AL teams where the #3 hitter had a sacrifice in 2013, but yeah, only once last year.

[joeynach]

No offense but you are moving the goalposts and are full of s***. Dunn batted 4th. I am pretty no one bunted in front of him. Rios stole bases in front of him and was very successful.

The White Sox stole bases at a 73% clip and needed to steal bases to score. Robin used more pinch runners than any manager in 2013.

There was stupid baserunning last year but I find it hard to place blame on a manager when someone gets picked off or misses a sign.

 

Whether Rios was succseful or not, every SB attempt ahead of or with Dunn at the plate is a complete waste and risk of an out that is 100% un-justifyable. Whether RV called for them or Rios did there is no place for that kind of cavilarish behavior when it comes to maximizing the use of your 27 outs.

[Dick Allen]

Whether Rios was succseful or not, every SB attempt ahead of or with Dunn at the plate is a complete waste and risk of an out that is 100% un-justifyable. Whether RV called for them or Rios did there is no place for that kind of cavilarish behavior when it comes to maximizing the use of your 27 outs.

Considering the amount of outs and strikeouts Dunn makes Rios' 82% success rate was well worth the gamble getting a RISP..

[Balta1701]

Considering the amount of outs and strikeouts Dunn makes Rios' 82% success rate was well worth the gamble getting a RISP..

Huh? Adam Dunn is the last guy on the roster who needs a RISP more than a "runner on base".

[Dick Allen]

Huh? Adam Dunn is the last guy on the roster who needs a RISP more than a "runner on base".

Huh?

 

He still hits more singles than homers, and he makes outs so the runner in scoring position helps the next batter.

 

Are you saying Alex Rios shouldn't have been running last season? The guy got thrown out 6 times. I know one of them was at 3B when Dunn was not batting and was went he went on his own. So at most he was thrown out 5 times when Dunn was batting. Probably fewer. It also kills the shift on Dunn as it would basically be giving Rios 3rd base.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

If it was Gordon Beckham or Alexei Ramirez hitting in those spots with a runner on 2nd instead of 1st, then it would make a lot of sense.

 

With Dunn, not so much.

[Balta1701]

Huh?

 

He still hits more singles than homers, and he makes outs so the runner in scoring position helps the next batter.

 

Are you saying Alex Rios shouldn't have been running last season? The guy got thrown out 6 times. I know one of them was at 3B when Dunn was not batting and was went he went on his own. So at most he was thrown out 5 times when Dunn was batting. Probably fewer.

No, I'm not going to say he shouldn't have been running because his success rate was so high, but if you're going to have guys who can run in front of anyone in the lineup, but the case you actually are making is that there should be someone hitting between Dunn and the guys who can steal bases if you want that to work, because Dunn was actually 8th on the team last year in hits that didn't leave the park.

 

On top of that, with his ability to take a walk, he moves guys to 2nd fairly often as it is without the speed.

 

With the debacle that was last year's lineup I'm not going to say that there was any "lineup shift" that would have produced better results, but you kinda just convinced me that Dunn should have continued hitting behind Konerko (or behind Viciedo or something like that) last year.

[Dick Allen]

No, I'm not going to say he shouldn't have been running because his success rate was so high, but if you're going to have guys who can run in front of anyone in the lineup, but the case you actually are making is that there should be someone hitting between Dunn and the guys who can steal bases if you want that to work, because Dunn was actually 8th on the team last year in hits that didn't leave the park.

 

On top of that, with his ability to take a walk, he moves guys to 2nd fairly often as it is without the speed.

 

With the debacle that was last year's lineup I'm not going to say that there was any "lineup shift" that would have produced better results, but you kinda just convinced me that Dunn should have continued hitting behind Konerko (or behind Viciedo or something like that) last year.

All this was pointed out because someone wanted to sound smart about Ventura's deficiencies managing saying he bunts too much, even though it was last in the league and the 3rd lowest total in the major leagues this decade and runs into outs with Dunn at bat. Both are totally false.

 

If people want to complain about Ventura's managing, I'm sure there are some legitimate gripes. But what was pointed out was not on the list, and if someone is going to steal at a 82% clip, I have no problem having him run in front of anyone. There is a far better chance to score from 2nd than 1B.

 

Even in fewer plate appearances Dunn had more walks and twice as many RBIs with a runner at 2nd than with a runner at first in 2013. Once again, facts show it made sense for Rios to get to 2nd base.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

Even in fewer plate appearances Dunn had more walks and twice as many RBIs with a runner at 2nd than with a runner at first in 2013. Once again, facts show it made sense for Rios to get to 2nd base.

But just to show how it's much more useful to have someone else hitting behind a guy who can steal 2nd, a glorified singles hitter like Paul Konerko had 3x as many RBI's with a runner at 2nd than with a runner at 1st (in about 60% of the opportunities).

[joeynach]

Huh? Adam Dunn is the last guy on the roster who needs a RISP more than a "runner on base".

 

Thank you!!!!

[joeynach]

All this was pointed out because someone wanted to sound smart about Ventura's deficiencies managing saying he bunts too much, even though it was last in the league and the 3rd lowest total in the major leagues this decade and runs into outs with Dunn at bat. Both are totally false.

 

If people want to complain about Ventura's managing, I'm sure there are some legitimate gripes. But what was pointed out was not on the list, and if someone is going to steal at a 82% clip, I have no problem having him run in front of anyone. There is a far better chance to score from 2nd than 1B.

 

Even in fewer plate appearances Dunn had more walks and twice as many RBIs with a runner at 2nd than with a runner at first in 2013. Once again, facts show it made sense for Rios to get to 2nd base.

 

I didn't say he bunts too much, I said I didn't see his game managing style to properly value outs enough. Examples being bunts to setup sac fly runner at 3rd with 1 out for some sort of low contact or low fly ball hitter coming up, and yes all the examples of stealing bases during a Dunn AB. I don't care what Rios SB% is, the fact that the manager is OK with it shows me he doesn't agree with the modern principles of valuing outs. Dunn doesn't need a RISP, he either strike's out, walks (in which case the runner advances into scoring position), or hits a home run (in which case whether he is on 1st or 2nd is irrelevant). What Robin demonstrated to me was they he either doesn't care for these principles or doesn't know. Either one not acceptable to me, especially for one of the new younger generations of manager. If you want a guy to play some by the book baseball there are some old guys available; Leyland, La Russa, etc. But if you are going to get a manager who played in our generation (90's and 00's), he better be someone who offers something beyond what the old school lifers offer.

 

Show me you study the defensive metrics, show me the defensive alignments you want to play in high leverage situations or lineup you want to play to offset another teams hitting tendencies (in a specific ballpark even). Show me you understand the tendencies of your relievers by going off the beat of lefty/lefty or righty/righty sometimes when you have found a statistical indicator that goes against convention. Show me you value working counts, walks, and on-base percentage as a method of offensive production and the tiring/revealing of the opposing pitchers stuff. Show me you properly value outs (a modern principle) by avoiding scenarios that result in voluntarily giving outs away (or risking giving them away). Unless I see these kind of tactics from my manager, than to me I am not interested. And thus far during RV's two seasons, I have not seen nearly enough of these principles to indicate he is or will be an effective manager for this organization.

Edited January 27, 2014 by joeynach