Northwestern Wildcat Players Attempt to Unionize

[Jenksismyhero]

I don't see why the NBA couldn't just change the amount of post-high school years you need to 4. Right now the players union has no leader and is completely rudderless. The NBA could basically do whatever they want for the next CBA unless something changes.

 

I realize too that this will never happen. But the schools could still make that change if for no other reason than to appear to want kids for 4 years to get an education. If they leave before that, well, that's on them. Perhaps add some kind of monetary penalty to make it all seem legit.

[StrangeSox]

I don't see why the NBA couldn't just change the amount of post-high school years you need to 4. Right now the players union has no leader and is completely rudderless. The NBA could basically do whatever they want for the next CBA unless something changes.

 

They could, but again, why? How would this benefit the NBA?

 

I realize too that this will never happen. But the schools could still make that change if for no other reason than to appear to want kids for 4 years to get an education. If they leave before that, well, that's on them. Perhaps add some kind of monetary penalty to make it all seem legit.

 

To me, that would just reinforce that it's much more like an employment contract than being about a student who happens to participate in amateur athletics.

[Jenksismyhero]

They could, but again, why? How would this benefit the NBA?

 

You get players with 4 years of college teaching that you can then start paying, as opposed to paying sophomores and juniors good money when they can't really contribute in the first few years. I think owners would love that. That, and I think the game itself would be much better overall.

 

 

To me, that would just reinforce that it's much more like an employment contract than being about a student who happens to participate in amateur athletics.

 

I don't see how. If you're giving out scholarships and requiring 4 years, you're telling that student that you want them there to earn a degree. There's no more argument about being at the school only for the purpose of playing football. You might be playing football while you're there, but since you're forced to attend and pass classes for 4 years the argument that it's about education becomes much, much stronger.

 

[StrangeSox]

Ok, so what happens when someone breaks their contract and is drafted into the NBA (NFL) after only 1 (3) years of college?

[Texsox]

Philosophically I prefer solutions where the NBA and the NCAA decisions are distinct from each other. Any collusion seems wrong. I have a hard time restricting the job opportunities of an 18 year old.

[Jenksismyhero]

Ok, so what happens when someone breaks their contract and is drafted into the NBA (NFL) after only 1 (3) years of college?

 

Nothing from the school's perspective, and I agree with you that enforcement would be an issue, but let's say there's a monetary penalty that they have to pay back a portion of their scholarship or school bills. Again, from the universities point of view, that's a breach of their agreement and the expectations they have for their "student-athlete."

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Nothing from the school's perspective, and I agree with you that enforcement would be an issue, but let's say there's a monetary penalty that they have to pay back a portion of their scholarship or school bills. Again, from the universities point of view, that's a breach of their agreement and the expectations they have for their "student-athlete."

 

Having to repay even $100,000 worth of tuition when you just signed a 7- or 8-figure contract isn't exactly much of a disincentive.

[Texsox]

Nothing from the school's perspective, and I agree with you that enforcement would be an issue, but let's say there's a monetary penalty that they have to pay back a portion of their scholarship or school bills. Again, from the universities point of view, that's a breach of their agreement and the expectations they have for their "student-athlete."

 

One of the interesting points about this is athletes have been in favor of 4 year scholarships, it is the colleges that do not like the idea. They like being able to pull an unproductive athelete's scholarship and give it to a different athlete.

[Jenksismyhero]

Having to repay even $100,000 worth of tuition when you just signed a 7- or 8-figure contract isn't exactly much of a disincentive.

 

Right, but look at it from the perspective of the university defending themselves in court.

[LittleHurt05]

Philosophically I prefer solutions where the NBA and the NCAA decisions are distinct from each other. Any collusion seems wrong. I have a hard time restricting the job opportunities of an 18 year old.

 

The job opportunities of all 18 year olds are restricted, other than the super geniuses who finish college by that age.

[Jenksismyhero]

One of the interesting points about this is athletes have been in favor of 4 year scholarships, it is the colleges that do not like the idea. They like being able to pull an unproductive athelete's scholarship and give it to a different athlete.

 

Football players are. I'm not sure about all of the other sports. I'm pretty sure men's basketball players are guaranteed 4 years.

[StrangeSox]

Right, but look at it from the perspective of the university defending themselves in court.

 

I don't see how it'd undercut any of the arguments that the NW players made. NW is known for their rigorous standards anyway. And now they've got to deal with litigation any time one of their players leaves before four years? What if they can finish a degree in three years? What if it would take them five or six? Besides, one of the things that players are pushing for are guaranteed scholarships--this could be a huge benefit to the players rather than anything all that positive for the schools.

 

Could a player decide to just stop playing sports? What if they're injured? What if they want to transfer?

[StrangeSox]

The job opportunities of all 18 year olds are restricted, other than the super geniuses who finish college by that age.

They're not arbitrarily restricted solely by age, though. Microsoft might require as BS-CS for an entry level position, but they don't require you to be 1 or 3 years out of high school like the NBA and NFL do. Those requirements aren't about any specific sort of experience, education, training or performance. I doubt that if Microsoft had a similar requirement, it'd stand up legally under age discrimination.

[Jenksismyhero]

I don't see how it'd undercut any of the arguments that the NW players made. NW is known for their rigorous standards anyway. And now they've got to deal with litigation any time one of their players leaves before four years? What if they can finish a degree in three years? What if it would take them five or six? Besides, one of the things that players are pushing for are guaranteed scholarships--this could be a huge benefit to the players rather than anything all that positive for the schools.

 

Could a player decide to just stop playing sports? What if they're injured? What if they want to transfer?

 

One of the main arguments the NLRB made was that education had little to do with football scholarships. Making a player attend classed and pass those classes for 4 years would do that. It doesn't matter what actually happens, the expectation from the university remains. They would argue in a court, "look your Honor, these are student athletes. We require that each student stay in school for 4 years (or until they obtain a degree) in order to get that scholarship. It's not payment for being an employee, it's a scholarship for being a student-athlete."

 

It makes it more comparable to a scholastic scholarship where the scholarship is tied to the expectation of graduation/getting a degree.

[Balta1701]

Ok, so what happens when someone breaks their contract and is drafted into the NBA (NFL) after only 1 (3) years of college?

Don't see a reply to this, but this happened for the NFL, Maurice Clarett tried to get into the draft after 3 years at OSU once he was tossed out of school, the case made it to the Supreme Court but the Court sided with the NFL.

[StrangeSox]

Football players are. I'm not sure about all of the other sports. I'm pretty sure men's basketball players are guaranteed 4 years.

 

The NCAA didn't even allow multi-year scholarships to be offered until a year or two ago.

[Jenksismyhero]

The NCAA didn't even allow multi-year scholarships to be offered until a year or two ago.

 

Ah. Well that's still not any different from scholastic scholarships right? Aren't those applied on an annual basis, probably to ensure that you're still in school/making the grades?

[Jenksismyhero]

Don't see a reply to this, but this happened for the NFL, Maurice Clarett tried to get into the draft after 3 years at OSU once he was tossed out of school, the case made it to the Supreme Court but the Court sided with the NFL.

 

I'm pretty sure the holding was - "you have no right to play in a private, professional league. They can make any rule they want for entry."

 

Edit:

 

"Clarett argues that the NFL clubs are horizontal competitors for the labor of professional football players and thus may not agree that a player will be hired only after three full football seasons have elapsed following that player’s high school graduation. That characterization, however, neglects that the labor market for NFL players is organized around a collective bargaining relationship that is provided for and promoted by federal labor law, and that the NFL clubs, as a multi-employer bargaining unit, can act jointly in setting the terms and conditions of players’ employment and the rules of the sport without risking antitrust liability. For those reasons, the NFL argues that federal labor law favoring and governing the collective bargaining process precludes the application of the antitrust laws to its eligibility rules. We agree."

Edited April 10, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

Don't see a reply to this, but this happened for the NFL, Maurice Clarett tried to get into the draft after 3 years at OSU once he was tossed out of school, the case made it to the Supreme Court but the Court sided with the NFL.

 

Clarett was challenging the three year rule of the NFL. He wasn't three years out of high school by that point.

 

edit: I mean, players declare after three years for the NFL or one year for the NBA all the time. Imagine that Derrick Rose had signed one of these 4-year contracts. Then, after one season at Memphis so that he meets the NBA's one-year-out-of-HS rule, he drops out and enters the draft. What are the consequences for him? Maybe a few thousand in damages? What would those damages even be? He wouldn't be fulfilling his end of the contract (playing basketball and attending school) and the school would be let out of their obligations (providing tuition, room and board). The school would be left having to argue the economic value their student-athletes bring to the university but also continue arguing why they aren't employees.

Edited April 10, 2014 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

Ah. Well that's still not any different from scholastic scholarships right? Aren't those applied on an annual basis, probably to ensure that you're still in school/making the grades?

No idea but some sort of academic 4-year contract would represent a substantial shift from the current landscape. Honestly I think that's a deal college athletes take 100% of the time, and those that would leave early anyway can just pay whatever breach of contract damages there are.