Sox still trying to trade Dunn?

[witesoxfan]

Why would you want to build Dunn's value at the expense of one of their better trading chips De Aza or Viciedo? Penny wise and pound foolish.

 

I think you answered your own question here. Dunn has little to no value while you can actually get a useful piece for De Aza or Viciedo.

[southsider2k5]

Does Rick Hahn make the same moves as Kenny Williams?

 

From the Blue Jays fans I've talked to they feel they don't sign him to an extension.

 

Unless there is a problem with Eaton, more than just growing pains, I can't see them being the market for an expensive CF.

[caulfield12]

 

It would be nice to be able to move Eaton to LF, but more of a luxury at the moment.

 

Other than Rasmus, there's nobody on that list that jumps out as the right move for a rebuilding team...Span should be playing in a huge outfield or artificial turf field to maximize his positives. Gutierrez had that one very solid season with the M's, but that was half a decade ago and we can't afford to add many "defense first" players.

 

 

Emilio Bonifacio (30)

Coco Crisp (35)

Franklin Gutierrez (32)

Colby Rasmus (28)

Grady Sizemore (32)

Denard Span (31) - $9MM club option with a $500K buyout

Chris Young (31)

[Balta1701]

It would be nice to be able to move Eaton to LF, but more of a luxury at the moment.

 

Other than Rasmus, there's nobody on that list that jumps out as the right move for a rebuilding team...Span should be playing in a huge outfield or artificial turf field to maximize his positives. Gutierrez had that one very solid season with the M's, but that was half a decade ago and we can't afford to add many "defense first" players.

 

 

Emilio Bonifacio (30)

Coco Crisp (35)

Franklin Gutierrez (32)

Colby Rasmus (28)

Grady Sizemore (32)

Denard Span (31) - $9MM club option with a $500K buyout

Chris Young (31)

And we also have no real idea what kind of OF Eaton could develop into with coaching. He was poor last year in short time, but also injured for a part of the year and so forth, so plenty of room to get better.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I think you answered your own question here. Dunn has little to no value while you can actually get a useful piece for De Aza or Viciedo.

Which is EXACTLY why you play Dunn at the expense of DeAza and Viciedo!

 

BRILLIANT!

[ScottyDo]

Interestingly, I agree with TUC and Marty in one regard: I do think it would be ideal for Dunn to be off the Sox soon, precisely so that one of ADA or Viciedo can retain their value and possibly develop further. What I disagree with is the idea that we should just dump Dunn no matter what. That's too drastic. His value is at a minimum right now but could reasonably go up by the all-star break, to the point where you don't have to swallow the rest of his contract. Have some patience.

[Eminor3rd]

Why would you want to build Dunn's value at the expense of one of their better trading chips De Aza or Viciedo? Penny wise and pound foolish.

 

Wait

 

Are you trolling me? Or did you actually just reply to that post with ANOTHER call to his trade value? A post that was one statement about how you are ignoring EVERYTHING EVERYONE IS SAYING about how his value does not come from trading him?

[caulfield12]

If the Sox have a 2014 where everything goes smoothly I think that acquiring a LH bat for the middle of the order is close to inevitable next offseason. Victor Martinez may be a value on a two year deal following his age 35 season.

 

 

How many hitters in the non-steroid era are declining strongly at that point?

 

I think you're either buying high on him (pass) or he has such a pedestrian 2014 season he at some point becomes a bargain basement signing that could be the lesser of two (or three) evils out on the market at that time in terms of contract length/salary.

[witesoxfan]

This really has become one of the worst debates or arguments or whatever in Soxtalk history.

 

 

[ILMOU]

If the Sox have a 2014 where everything goes smoothly I think that acquiring a LH bat for the middle of the order is close to inevitable next offseason. Victor Martinez may be a value on a two year deal following his age 35 season.

Was thinking the same thing. If the health prognosis is good, I'd be all over it.

[Balta1701]

Was thinking the same thing. If the health prognosis is good, I'd be all over it.

If he has a solid season, chances the Tigers offer him a QO?

[ILMOU]

If he has a solid season, chances the Tigers offer him a QO?

 

Good, I would think.

[Balta1701]

Good, I would think.

I can argue myself the other way too, with the fact that Scherzer is a FA and he has to be a priority target...I end up with "I'm not sure but it's plausible".

[Kyyle23]

This really has become one of the worst debates or arguments or whatever in Soxtalk history.

 

in the Palehose bracket, yes. There are several buster and SLaM debates that are pretty epic bad

[witesoxfan]

in the Palehose bracket, yes. There are several buster and SLaM debates that are pretty epic bad

 

Sorry, yes, I should have been clear. It's amazing that we closed a thread due to this pointless argument and the vitriol being thrown around, yet here it begins to populate itself again in another fashion even as management has made it's indications pretty clear as to what they are going to do (which is to say, not sign any current free agent pitcher to a 4 year deal and not outright release Dunn), yet people are still defending it to the death.

[ILMOU]

I can argue myself the other way too, with the fact that Scherzer is a FA and he has to be a priority target...I end up with "I'm not sure but it's plausible".

Yep. A lot can change between now and then. I think that VMart might age better than most, if healthy, as he's more of a professional solid-contact hitter less dependent on power. Somewhat like Bobby Abreu. And produces like Julio Franco when he's on. Love watching him hit, and he's been a protector of Miggy, so why not JDA?

 

On another topic, I'm wondering if the FA system can be tweaked before next offseason without some big hullaballoo between the union and MLB - the mid-tier guys that were good enough for QO, but whose value is weighed against high draft picks are likely going to get killed in the market. Could they maybe just lower the compensation to a second round pick, and third round if it's in the top 10? Just throwin' that out there. The union won't strike for a handful of players, but they're none too happy.

 

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/jon-he...carlet-letter-q

 

[witesoxfan]

They'll ultimately wait until the CBA expires to change that, but you can bet it will be changed again.

[caulfield12]

From the Heyman article...interesting stuff. Still not the right sign for the White Sox, though. There are clearly some concerns about wear and tear/losing stuff over the last decade, but there's some pretty compelling counter-evidence as well

 

 

The same could be said for Santana, who like Cruz also had a very good platform year. Santana's agents put together a strong promotional book, pointing out some highlights that may surprise folks. Santana was tied for ninth in quality starts (23) last year, tied for ninth also in the ratio of above-average to below-average starts (3.00; he had 24 that were above average, just eight below average) and tied for eighth in the ratio of starts deemed "strong" or "dominant" by Inside Edge (59.4 percent). In that category, he was tied with no less than Yu Darvish, Jordan Zimmermann and Max Scherzer, the AL Cy Young winner.

 

1. Santana: This guy is much better than you think, though he may have to settle for less than we all figured. His persuasive promotional book points out that only nine pitchers have started more games than Santana since 2005, and only 11 have thrown more innings. And they aren't bad innings, either. He's been a consistent strike thrower and winner who's become more of a groundball pitcher with the development of a sinker, save for one off year in 2012, when he received all-time bad run support. Pitching only in the American League, he's won 105 games (38 more than Matt Garza, who got $50 million for four years plus a vesting option with no draft choice attached) and should be in line for a major deal. The book points to a value of $112.57 million over five years based on past contracts given to comps Zack Greinke, John Lackey and Burnett. That was never an asking price, mind you. But you couldn't blame them for aiming high considering the numbers. The Jays are known to have checked in, while the Orioles, Yankees and Twins are known to have requested his medicals. Beyond that, not much is known. There's no word yet Santana has dropped his asking price from five years, though at this stage, a four-year deal wouldn't be bad at all.

Edited February 3, 2014 by caulfield12

[ILMOU]

From the Heyman article...interesting stuff. Still not the right sign for the White Sox, though. There are clearly some concerns about wear and tear/losing stuff over the last decade, but there's some pretty compelling counter-evidence as well

 

 

The same could be said for Santana, who like Cruz also had a very good platform year. Santana's agents put together a strong promotional book, pointing out some highlights that may surprise folks. Santana was tied for ninth in quality starts (23) last year, tied for ninth also in the ratio of above-average to below-average starts (3.00; he had 24 that were above average, just eight below average) and tied for eighth in the ratio of starts deemed "strong" or "dominant" by Inside Edge (59.4 percent). In that category, he was tied with no less than Yu Darvish, Jordan Zimmermann and Max Scherzer, the AL Cy Young winner.

 

1. Santana: This guy is much better than you think, though he may have to settle for less than we all figured. His persuasive promotional book points out that only nine pitchers have started more games than Santana since 2005, and only 11 have thrown more innings. And they aren't bad innings, either. He's been a consistent strike thrower and winner who's become more of a groundball pitcher with the development of a sinker, save for one off year in 2012, when he received all-time bad run support. Pitching only in the American League, he's won 105 games (38 more than Matt Garza, who got $50 million for four years plus a vesting option with no draft choice attached) and should be in line for a major deal. The book points to a value of $112.57 million over five years based on past contracts given to comps Zack Greinke, John Lackey and Burnett. That was never an asking price, mind you. But you couldn't blame them for aiming high considering the numbers. The Jays are known to have checked in, while the Orioles, Yankees and Twins are known to have requested his medicals. Beyond that, not much is known. There's no word yet Santana has dropped his asking price from five years, though at this stage, a four-year deal wouldn't be bad at all.

I like Santana, but in our ballpark, not so much. He should stay in a spacious park, wherever he winds up.

[witesoxfan]

I wish Ervin Santana and Jimenez would just sign already so this moot and useless conversation ends. Chances Paulino outperforms Ubaldo Jimenez this year??

 

50/50

[The Ultimate Champion]

Interestingly, I agree with TUC and Marty in one regard: I do think it would be ideal for Dunn to be off the Sox soon, precisely so that one of ADA or Viciedo can retain their value and possibly develop further. What I disagree with is the idea that we should just dump Dunn no matter what. That's too drastic. His value is at a minimum right now but could reasonably go up by the all-star break, to the point where you don't have to swallow the rest of his contract. Have some patience.

You're almost there, Scotty. Keep coming, you almost got it. You're waaaaaay ahead of the others and I'm happy about that.

 

So you will admit that the Sox are better off without the old ball and chain, I agree.

 

You also admit that you're willing to play the guy roughly half the season (meaning you're happy eating $7.5M of that deal or so) because you hope that he can build enough value that someone else would be willing to take on *some* of that deal. How much? You must also be willing to admit that even if the Sox find a suitor it is unlikely they will find someone that will assume the other roughly $7.5M left on his deal.

 

So how much is enough? How much money would you need to see the Sox get back to make it worth carrying dead weight for half the season? And secondly, that $$$ you would save, where does it go? The Sox are already under budget as it is.

 

It's funny how posters here are willing to admit that Dunn has basically no value, and admit that he's not going to bring back much if anything in trade, and they can also admit that the Sox will have to eat $$$ to send him on his way. But somehow it's tough to swallow just letting him go, maybe even as I have mentioned before, trying to re-work his deal and defer some of that money.

 

Marty is absolutely right, keeping Dunn is pennywise and pound foolish. If fact if you look at term up in any good dictionary you're going to see some giant left-handed oaf standing there confusedly with a bat on his shoulder. Ah yes, one of the tallest midgets on the worst offense in baseball, sure, but aren't we trying to move on from that.

 

It seems like most of SoxTalk is willing to suffer through another several months of this guy & call out the fans for being classless for booing, and blah blah blah, looking to pick up a couple mil in savings and maybe even a s***ty prospect too. Great. I'm with Marty, pennywise and poundfoolish, and Scotty I hope you can come over to this side of the fence where the grass is definitely greener and the sky is crystal blue and it doesn't smell like Dunn over here at all because we've already gotten past that guy, he's already long gone to us, we're just trying to help others like the Sox upper management for instance find that same sense of sanity & dump the guy while there is still time.

[ScottyDo]

Nah, not taking the bait

[witesoxfan]

He has no *trade* value at the moment because of his contract. He has plenty of value as a hitter, especially against right handed pitching. If he hits well in a platoon, the Sox could easily get someone to eat $2-5 million of his deal, which is $2-5 million the White Sox don't have to pay and will pay if they release him.

 

It's also of note that the Sox likely are working with teams and willing to eat quite a bit of his salary to facilitate a trade, but outright releasing him isn't going to happen. You can argue it till you're blue in the face, but it's not going to happen, so you're ultimately wasting your time.

Edited February 3, 2014 by witesoxfan

[Dick Allen]

I wish Ervin Santana and Jimenez would just sign already so this moot and useless conversation ends. Chances Paulino outperforms Ubaldo Jimenez this year??

Paulino may be good he may be awful. He pitched 37 innings in 2012 and 0 in 2013, and before that he was pretty awful.

 

For anyone to suggest he has a decent chance to outperform Jimenez in 2014, is not basing it on anything you really should base anything upon. Just basing it on because they say so.

[Quin]

This thread still sucks.