Amanda Knox found guilty again

[Kyyle23]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/30/world/europe...ml?c=homepage-t

 

Anyone think she gets extradited?

[greg775]

Does our government ever send people back over there to be thrown in the slammer? Or do we let them stay here?

[southsideirish71]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/30/world/europe...ml?c=homepage-t

 

Anyone think she gets extradited?

 

I believe They won't honor extradition as this is considered double jeopardy.

[Soxbadger]

I would be against the extradition.

[cabiness42]

Does our government ever send people back over there to be thrown in the slammer? Or do we let them stay here?

 

Yes, the US does extradite people, but since this was a case of double jeopardy I doubt it happens here.

 

I think the bigger question is why the Italian government doesn't just make this go away. First of all, she's not getting extradited and won't see any more jail time anyways, and secondly, all this is doing is killing tourism and study abroad programs. I know my alma mater sends a bunch of students to Italy every semester, and they may rethink that after this.

[southsider2k5]

This case has facinated me from day one. The opinions are so diverged, and there doesn't seem to be a middle ground. Either she is a sweet innocent experimenting girl, or she is a crazy murdering nutjob.

[StrangeSox]

Everything I've read about the prosecution's case has been pretty ridiculous.

 

She won't be extradited from the US, but she probably can't set foot in thy eu.

[LittleHurt05]

But her "partner in crime" does have to go back to jail because he is in Italy, right?

[StrangeSox]

But her "partner in crime" does have to go back to jail because he is in Italy, right?

Yes, plus there was some random African immigrant convicted for the murder a couple of years ago.

[pettie4sox]

And I thought America's CJS was bad.

[Feeky Magee]

Everything I've read about the prosecution's case has been pretty ridiculous.

 

She won't be extradited from the US, but she probably can't set foot in thy eu.

There's a large amount of evidence against her and Sollecito.

 

- Knox falsely implicated someone else and did not withdraw the implication until it was proven he had no involvement.

 

- Knox and Sollecito clearly lied several times about what they were doing at various times the night of the murder: confirmed by internet usage, phone calls, witness sightings etc.

 

- Knox said she became panicked when she called Kercher and her phone "rang and rang" but she didn't answer it. Her mobile phone data shows her two calls to Kercher lasted a total of 3 and 4 seconds, right after each other, and she never called again. Seems like she just wanted to register the fact that she'd called Kercher more than once but didn't realise the amount of time would be recorded.

 

- If you're to believe Knox's story, she came back to her house to find the front door wide open, window smashed, place ransacked, blood in the main bathroom and a s*** in her roommates toilet. She then decides not to call the police, but instead to take a shower and do her hair in her roommates' bathroom without flushing the toilet. This would be exceptionally strange behaviour.

 

- According to Knox and Sollecito, after she discussed it with him, they'd called the police and said they were very worried because there'd been a break-in and her roommates' room was locked. They claimed they did so before the postal police arrived (despite CCTV, phone and witness evidence all suggesting otherwise). Even if you're to believe that, in what should have been a very lucky break for them, the postal police arrive at the house before the regular police they called. Contrary to what was said on the phone, Knox told the postal police that Kercher always locked her door and it was nothing to be worried about. This was after the postal police tell her they've recovered Kercher's phone in suspicious circumstances, something which should have panicked her further about Kercher's well-being if she was telling the truth.

 

- The knife found at Sollecito's apartment exactly fitted wounds on Kercher and had Kercher and Knox's DNA present on it.

 

- Sollecito's DNA was found on the bra clasp of Kercher, which was removed after her death.

 

- There was conclusive evidence that the break-in was staged, something which would have only needed to be done by someone with access to the house attempting to throw the police off the scent. Evidence suggests convincingly that Guede did not stage the burglary, and therefore it had to be Knox and Sollecito.

[StrangeSox]

IIRC, the knife was a kitchen knife that had been in the apartment for a long time. Not exactly surprising that the DNA of both of the people who lived there would be on it. The bra clasp wasn't collected until something like six weeks after the initial investigation and was just left lying on the floor that time. The prosecution's eye-witness was someone whom they routinely paid for such testimony and wasn't exactly reliable.

 

edit: so, assuming the rest is true, why did the prosecution have to come up with (multiple) outlandish theories about the motive behind the crime and how it took place? The way you laid it out, it should have been very simple and straight forward.

Edited February 5, 2014 by StrangeSox

[Feeky Magee]

IIRC, the knife was a kitchen knife that had been in the apartment for a long time. Not exactly surprising that the DNA of both of the people who lived there would be on it. The bra clasp wasn't collected until something like six weeks after the initial investigation and was just left lying on the floor that time. The prosecution's eye-witness was someone whom they routinely paid for such testimony and wasn't exactly reliable.

 

edit: so, assuming the rest is true, why did the prosecution have to come up with (multiple) outlandish theories about the motive behind the crime and how it took place? The way you laid it out, it should have been very simple and straight forward.

It was in *Solecitto's* apartment. Why would it have Meredith Kercher's DNA on it? We know Kercher and Knox didn't get along, why would Kercher be in Knox's boyfriend's apartment? That the bra was not collected for 6 weeks is pretty shoddy but ultimately has no effect. It could be relevant if we're talking about DNA disappearing, but DNA just doesn't magic itself onto something over time. It was a sealed crime scene, there's no innocent explanation for Solecitto's DNA making his way onto the bra clasp.

 

What multiple outlandish theories about the motive behind the crime and how it took place did the prosecution come up with? There was disinformation that they claimed it was a Satanic motive, however there's no suggestion of this at all anywhere in any of the court documents. There was disinformation that they hugely played up the sexual element, however they simply noted that she had been digitally penetrated and did not base any large amount of their case on that information.

 

Knox's family have been responsible for a huge amount of disinformation about the case. They hired a PR firm days after the murder. Her parents are actually facing charges for claiming in a newspaper that for her false accusal of Lumumba she was interrogated for 9 hours (shortly after stating on TV that it was 14), given no food or water, hit around the head and given no interpreter. All of which are either completely false, or in the case of the hit around the head, a detail-light allegation which came way after the face despite ample chance to say it before.

 

In fact, she was interviewed for at the very most 2 hours (likely about an hour and a quarter) with an interpreter present and was given water, tea and items from a vending machine. This was on an evening where the police hadn't even requested her presence at the station and only questioned here after Sollecito, whom she accompanied, claimed she asked him to lie for her when faced with inconsistencies in her account.

 

The only thing that will happen to her parents if the charges are proven by the way are issues with travel to Italy, a small price to pay for being a key part of the offensive that has America on her side and will doubtless lead to heavy pressure not to extradite.

 

If anyone was guilty of coming up with outlandish theories about how the crime took place, it was both defences, who pursued a single-attacker theory, was was wildly unsupported by the evidence.

 

Ultimately there's a lot of evidence against her and Solecitto and the only way to dance around this is to speak in generalities about the prosecution and procedural errors. Because when you get into the specifics, it looks terrible for Knox and Solecitto.

[StrangeSox]

Are you an Italian prosecutor or?

 

I think this article goes over just how crappy the 'evidence' against either of them was. Guede? Yeah, he seems obviously guilty as f***. But there's nothing but (questionable) circumstantial evidence tying Knox or her boyfriend to the crime.

 

edit: as that article references, the Italian high court that ordered the retrial said that the new trial should focus on the "sex games gone wrong" aspect, which was always dumb and loopy and completely unsupported. And the re-trial introduced yet another fun scenario about arguments over cleanliness that resulted in Knox and her boyfriend stabbing Kercher to death while Guede watched.

 

edit2: and it's really questionable whether or not the knife found actually had Kercher's DNA, and it didn't fit many of the stab-wounds (hence the new and exciting multi-knife theory!)

 

edit3: what's the conclusive evidence that the break-in was staged? from what I've read, they found glass on the inside, and concluded that the windows must have been broken from the inside. Are Italian police and prosecutors really that incompetent? If you break a window from the outside, most glass will fly inside.

Edited February 5, 2014 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

More importantly, what kind of dumb legal system allows double jeopardy, anyway?

[cabiness42]

More importantly, what kind of dumb legal system allows double jeopardy, anyway?

 

Not exactly double jeopardy, but down here, there was a retired state cop who got charged with killing his wife and kids (8, 5). He had 10 witnesses that put him 10 miles away playing basketball at the time of the murders, and there was an ex-con's DNA on a sweatshirt at the scene. Not only did he get prosecuted, but got convicted twice with both times the convictions eventually overturned on appeals. The prosecutor still decided to try him a third time, when he was finally found not guilty. Spent 13 years in prison until then though.

[StrangeSox]

America definitely isn't immune from the problem of overzealous, incompetent and corrupt prosecutions.

[Feeky Magee]

Are you an Italian prosecutor or?

 

I think this article goes over just how crappy the 'evidence' against either of them was. Guede? Yeah, he seems obviously guilty as f***. But there's nothing but (questionable) circumstantial evidence tying Knox or her boyfriend to the crime.

 

edit: as that article references, the Italian high court that ordered the retrial said that the new trial should focus on the "sex games gone wrong" aspect, which was always dumb and loopy and completely unsupported. And the re-trial introduced yet another fun scenario about arguments over cleanliness that resulted in Knox and her boyfriend stabbing Kercher to death while Guede watched.

 

edit2: and it's really questionable whether or not the knife found actually had Kercher's DNA, and it didn't fit many of the stab-wounds (hence the new and exciting multi-knife theory!)

 

edit3: what's the conclusive evidence that the break-in was staged? from what I've read, they found glass on the inside, and concluded that the windows must have been broken from the inside. Are Italian police and prosecutors really that incompetent? If you break a window from the outside, most glass will fly inside.

That article is an absolute nonsense and written by the man who co-authored Solecitto's book about his account of events.

 

1. There's lots of evidence tying Knox and Solecitto to the crime. I have listed very specific ones above which you haven't addressed. Can you explain away the phone records, CCTV, internet records, etc.?

 

2. You say Guede is guilty as f***, how do you separate this from Knox and Solecitto? The absolute overwhelming evidence is that there were multiple attackers (lack of defensive wounds, injuries consistent with being held down, angle of wounds, etc.). Who then assisted Guede? Perhaps the people whose blood and footprints were found in Kercher's bathroom (Knox and Solecitto)? Also, Kercher's door was locked, with the pattern of Guede's bloody footprints making it impossible that he locked the door.

 

3. The knife absolutely had Kercher's DNA (http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Videos/Posters/DNA_superimposed.jpg). The only question is how it got there, with the defence suggesting that DNA transfer was possible, without suggesting how this might have happened. When faced with the evidence of Kercher's DNA being on the knife, Solecitto claimed that they had all been cooking together and he had accidentally pricked Kercher's hand with the knife and got her blood on it, a fairly obvious lie.

 

4. How is the multi-knife theory new?

 

5. The conclusive evidence that the break-in was staged is as follows: a) the glass from the window was all on top of the scattered items, therefore the glass was broken after everything was scattered, b) the point of entry made no sense, being both the most exposed and most difficult point of entry in the whole house, c) to enter through the window required one to walk on grass first, it was a wet night, and there were no grass or mud stains at all on the wall or windowsill and none of the vegetation was trampled, d) the windowsill was covered in glass, despite an entry requiring a burglar to rest his knees upon it, and surely brush the glass away first, e) the scattering was mostly clothing, with valuables left in plain sight.

[StrangeSox]

The footprints found in the blood didn't match their shoes. The DNA in the knife was a questionable match. You still have the prosecution inventing dumb scenario after dumb scenario.

 

You listed a bunch of things above, but some, like the witness accounts, are very very questionable and others have faced serious scrutiny.

 

The latest idea was that they argued about cleanliness, Knox got so made she stabbed her, then her boyfriend stabbed her.oh and also this other guy who confessed the murder also happened be there, for some reason. If the physical evidence really is as strong as you say, why such a ridiculous scenario? Why invent a new scenario for the re trial?

[Feeky Magee]

The footprints found in the blood didn't match their shoes. The DNA in the knife was a questionable match. You still have the prosecution inventing dumb scenario after dumb scenario.

 

You listed a bunch of things above, but some, like the witness accounts, are very very questionable and others have faced serious scrutiny.

 

The latest idea was that they argued about cleanliness, Knox got so made she stabbed her, then her boyfriend stabbed her.oh and also this other guy who confessed the murder also happened be there, for some reason. If the physical evidence really is as strong as you say, why such a ridiculous scenario? Why invent a new scenario for the re trial?

- The bloody footprint on the bathmat was a near-perfect match to Raffaele Solecitto: http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/imag...print_table.png

 

- I don't know how you can call the DNA on the knife a questionable match. Are you basing this on studying of the profile analysis or on what the defence says? Studying the profile analysis will show you a perfect match.

 

- The possibility that the murder was sparked by an argument about cleanliness was a scenario the prosecutor asked the court to consider. It was mentioned as a possibility during a 10-hour closing argument, and was absolutely nowhere near the cornerstone of his argument. Trying to explain away the mounds of evidence by saying "if the evidence is so strong then why did the prosecution do [insert small prosecution misstep or unproven theory here]" is a common method used when the evidence cannot be explained away, attempting to bundle it together and then tie it to something unrelated. Really the only way to explain the evidence away is to explain it away, but it cannot be done, because it is plentiful and damning, hence why you have not attempted to do so, in the case of most of the multiple specifics listed above.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Feeky Magee

[StrangeSox]

- The bloody footprint on the bathmat was a near-perfect match to Raffaele Solecitto: http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/imag...print_table.png

 

Others strongly disagree and say that the measurements were faulty. They say that the correct measurements match Rudy's, as do the show prints found elsewhere in the apartment. It's only a "near-perfect match" if you accept the prosecution's measurements without question.

 

- I don't know how you can call the DNA on the knife a questionable match. Are you basing this on studying of the profile analysis or on what the defence says? Studying the profile analysis will show you a perfect match.

 

Because the "test" that was run was run in an uncertified lab using non-standard techniques and even then, could only get a partial match at a low probability. The knife was essentially chosen at random from S.'s kitchen, even though there wasn't any blood, it didn't really match the blood prints or the stab wounds and there was no particular reason to select that knife. The theory that Knox was carrying a large kitchen knife around in her purse for...some reason? doesn't really make sense, either.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/International/amanda...ory?id=20738813

 

I don't know how anyone can think the DNA evidence, or really any of the physical evidence, is so air-tight.

 

- The possibility that the murder was sparked by an argument about cleanliness was a scenario the prosecutor asked the court to consider. It was mentioned as a possibility during a 10-hour closing argument, and was absolutely nowhere near the cornerstone of his argument. Trying to explain away the mounds of evidence by saying "if the evidence is so strong then why did the prosecution do [insert small prosecution misstep or unproven theory here]" is a common method used when the evidence cannot be explained away, attempting to bundle it together and then tie it to something unrelated. Really the only way to explain the evidence away is to explain it away, but it cannot be done, because it is plentiful and damning, hence why you have not attempted to do so, in the case of most of the multiple specifics listed above.

 

The "mounds of evidence" are highly questionable to many people, even if you personally believe they prove their guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt. The facts are that the police work was shoddy, the prosecution's scenarios didn't make sense and frequently changed, and the forensic analysis is dubious. There's no actual, hard evidence linking them to the crime, only some circumstantial stuff, the Italian media's circus that fueled/was fueled by the prosecution, and Italy's laughable legal system.

[bigruss]

Go get a courtroom you two.

[StrangeSox]

Not directly related to this case, but Nova had an episode a couple years ago about forensic science and some of the problems with it.

 

http://video.pbs.org/video/2290878958/

Edited February 5, 2014 by StrangeSox

[Feeky Magee]

Others strongly disagree and say that the measurements were faulty. They say that the correct measurements match Rudy's, as do the show prints found elsewhere in the apartment. It's only a "near-perfect match" if you accept the prosecution's measurements without question.

 

 

 

Because the "test" that was run was run in an uncertified lab using non-standard techniques and even then, could only get a partial match at a low probability. The knife was essentially chosen at random from S.'s kitchen, even though there wasn't any blood, it didn't really match the blood prints or the stab wounds and there was no particular reason to select that knife. The theory that Knox was carrying a large kitchen knife around in her purse for...some reason? doesn't really make sense, either.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/International/amanda...ory?id=20738813

 

I don't know how anyone can think the DNA evidence, or really any of the physical evidence, is so air-tight.

 

 

 

The "mounds of evidence" are highly questionable to many people, even if you personally believe they prove their guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt. The facts are that the police work was shoddy, the prosecution's scenarios didn't make sense and frequently changed, and the forensic analysis is dubious. There's no actual, hard evidence linking them to the crime, only some circumstantial stuff, the Italian media's circus that fueled/was fueled by the prosecution, and Italy's laughable legal system.

- Those are not the prosecution's measurements. They are the police's measurements. The court decided it was Solecitto's footprint and not possibly Guede's. Please explain to me how it could possibly be Guede's with undershoots of 30% and overshoots of 50%. Alternatively, please show me measurements that are more accurate than the ones the police took.

 

- The knife was not chosen at random. It was chosen because it was the only knife in the drawer that could have been the murder weapon (http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/12020202.jpg) and smelled of bleach. The same bleach as the two bottles found in Solecitto's apartment which the cleaning lady said should not have been there and were not purchased by her. Meanwhile Knox had been seen outside a store at 7.45am waiting for it to open and went straight to the cleaning section, despite claiming to have been in bed asleep with Solecitto at the time, a claim contradicted by phone and internet records.

 

- You talk about the Italian media circus, yet every report you link to is from the US media. Knox's parents have been charged with libel for comments made in the US media about her interrogation which have proven to be false. Calling Italy's legal system laughable is, well, laughable. Particularly when you come from a country where someone can commit a murder, get away with it, write a book basically detailing how they did it, and not be re-charged with the crime.

 

I also note you are yet to challenge or acknowledge the evidence about the staged break-in, the timing of the call to the police, the multiple attackers, Knox's blood in Kercher's bathroom or Knox and Solecitto's bulls*** alibi.

[StrangeSox]

- Those are not the prosecution's measurements. They are the police's measurements. The court decided it was Solecitto's footprint and not possibly Guede's. Please explain to me how it could possibly be Guede's with undershoots of 30% and overshoots of 50%. Alternatively, please show me measurements that are more accurate than the ones the police took.

 

Others argue that the measurements were faulty and included the second toe as part of the big toe. If that error is adjusted, then the measurements match Guede's very well.

 

- The knife was not chosen at random. It was chosen because it was the only knife in the drawer that could have been the murder weapon (http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/12020202.jpg) and smelled of bleach.

 

This is still at random because 1) it doesn't actually match the stab wounds and 2) there's no reason to believe that the murder weapon would be in that drawer or in his apartment at all. But if they're convinced that he did it in a big sex party with Knox and Lumumba oops I mean Guede now, hey, here's a big knife, that's probably the murder weapon!

 

The same bleach as the two bottles found in Solecitto's apartment which the cleaning lady said should not have been there and were not purchased by her. Meanwhile Knox had been seen outside a store at 7.45am waiting for it to open and went straight to the cleaning section, despite claiming to have been in bed asleep with Solecitto at the time, a claim contradicted by phone and internet records.

 

Despite early reports to the contrary (thanks media circus and Italian justice system that invites juror contamination!), no receipts or evidence were ever produced that either of them had purchased bleach that morning. There's no indication that Knox's apartment was cleaned with bleach, either, otherwise there wouldn't be such copious amounts of Guede's DNA and blood trails all over the place.

 

- You talk about the Italian media circus, yet every report you link to is from the US media. Knox's parents have been charged with libel for comments made in the US media about her interrogation which have proven to be false. Calling Italy's legal system laughable is, well, laughable. Particularly when you come from a country where someone can commit a murder, get away with it, write a book basically detailing how they did it, and not be re-charged with the crime.

 

I have plenty of criticism of the US legal system, but my (admittedly limited) exposure to the Italian system really does make it seem like a big joke comparatively. Double-jeopardy is a horrible idea.

 

I also note you are yet to challenge or acknowledge the evidence about the staged break-in, the timing of the call to the police, the multiple attackers, Knox's blood in Kercher's bathroom or Knox and Solecitto's bulls*** alibi.

 

Whether or not the break-in was staged is, like every other piece of evidence, very debatable and the prosecution's theories are not the most plausible. The same goes for multiple attackers. Knox's DNA was found in Kercher's bathroom, but not her blood. Not exactly shocking. Knox did have a bunch of bulls*** rambling at first, but false confessions or confusion are hardly unique to her.

 

I note that you are yet to respond to most of the points I've made. The knife didn't match wounds; the DNA analysis on it was garbage (as found by independent investigators appointed by the judge); the prosecution's many theories don't actually make sense; Guede's blood and prints are all over the damn place but there's no reliable physical evidence linking Knox; the bra clasp was left on-scene for weeks on end, kicked around and improperly handled; the judge's summary report relied very heavily on "probably" and supposition and was light on actual, plain facts.

Edited February 5, 2014 by StrangeSox